Mike: 00:00

Welcome to speak the truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. I am still by myself in studio, but I do have a great guest with us, and she has been on here before.

Mike: 00:17

As a matter of fact, she was on earlier this year when we were in Ontario. Maybe that'll give it away, but there's a few people that were on our podcast from Ontario earlier this year. So I am joined today with Betty Ann Van Rees. Betty, how are doing?

Betty-Anne: 00:33

Doing well. Thanks.

Mike: 00:33

Great. Betty Ann serves in the local church and discipleship roles that include speaking, teaching, mentoring, counseling, and training with biblical counselors, and she is a part of the biblical counseling coalition of Canada. I always do that the wrong way, don't I? I should say Canadian biblical counseling coalition. Yes?

Betty-Anne: 00:51

Yeah. We're happy if you say it anyway. Yeah.

Mike: 00:53

I had the joy earlier this year in I think that was the first time that we had met. Yeah? I

Betty-Anne: 00:58

think so. It's hard because I see you regularly, so I feel like I know you. But Yeah. It's possible that was the first time we actually met. Yeah.

Mike: 01:04

Yeah. And I we bonded immediately because you're also a flat footer. Yeah. Like

Betty-Anne: 01:07

the Minimalist.

Mike: 01:08

Yeah. A little minimalist. And I think you had your did you have your Vibrams on? Yes. You did.

Betty-Anne: 01:13

Yeah. I believe. Yeah. Yeah. Was the thing.

Mike: 01:16

It was great. At any rate, we are continuing our counseling through God's attributes miniseries here. And before we had Jesse on, and this time we're gonna be focusing on her contribution and Betty's contribution excuse me. Betty Ann's contribution was all seeing that God is all seeing, Elroy, and her text that she focused on in this submission was Genesis chapter 16 verses one through 14. And so, again, like you guys are already familiar in all of our counseling through miniseries that we do on Speak the Truth is basically us sharing with everyone, basically, how we walk through a session.

Mike: 01:53

So this is a this is attributing to ABC's methodology for how we do biblical counseling. So this is for those of you counselors who are out there or even those of you who are considering what is biblical counseling, whether you are a church staff person or volunteer or possibly even a pastor elder. But we think these are very important because one of the things within biblical counseling is really developing a methodology for how we do biblical counseling. It's one thing to talk about it, to theorize about it, but it's another thing to actually what does it look like and sound like in the counseling room? And we wanted to have Betty Ann on with us.

Mike: 02:29

And so, Betty, could you just share with us what was on your heart out of all of God's attributes? Why did you choose God being Elroy, all seeing? Why did you choose that as an attribute?

Betty-Anne: 02:40

I feel like this is probably the easiest one for me to talk about because it's the most personal one for me. It's ministered to me most deeply. So I yeah. I it's this wasn't hard work for me to put together this because I the Lord has used it to minister to my soul a lot, and then he uses it for me to be able to talk to other people. Yeah.

Betty-Anne: 03:00

I I other things that I would had to work harder for was not one of them. Yeah.

Mike: 03:04

Yeah. Good. So in in the text that you chose, because there's obviously other texts where it's clear that god, this particular attribute is at play, but this one is explicitly stating the obvious. Yeah. Walk us

Betty-Anne: 03:16

Yeah. I think one of the things I love about this is, like, the first time a particular name is used for God is really significant. And so a really long time ago, and when I became aware of this, like, one of the things that really meant a lot to me was that he was revealing himself this way to a woman and a foreigner woman, which to me that yeah. For the first time to be called El Roy by an Egyptian slave woman, that's just so significant. Yeah.

Betty-Anne: 03:45

So that's a piece, yeah, why it really is ministering to me. Yeah.

Mike: 03:48

Okay. Good. And so in this particular submission though, walking through this particular text in this submission with someone in counseling, can you just work through this particular submission for us? And, like, what how would you apply this all seeing God to a case or in in in your experience and cases in the past where you've worked through this in session and how you would work through this text?

Betty-Anne: 04:11

Yeah. So I I feel like I love this book, particularly of all the books that we've done because I do think we're calling people to trust God, basically. That's really what we're doing as biblical counselors. But if they don't know who he is, that's really hard. Yeah.

Betty-Anne: 04:25

That's just really legitimate. I don't trust people I don't know automatically. So I feel like it's really vital that we are helping them to see who he really is. And so I think Hagar's story is a place where we really get a good look at that. And so if I'm using this with some her story, I'm going to want to really help them see her.

Betty-Anne: 04:46

I want them understand what it was like to be Hagar and understand her context because I think as they do that, it's going to help them see themselves. And then how God ministers to her is going to be more relevant to how he wants to minister to them. I think that's where I'm going. So in this situation, I take time to help them understand just how unseen she was. She was they don't even name her when they're talking about her.

Betty-Anne: 05:13

They just talk about her, the servant, and how used in her unseenness. Like, she's just part of the she's like a pot in the kitchen. Honestly, I think that's a really good way of thinking about it. Oh, we could use her to accomplish our purpose. And I feel like lots of people feel like that.

Betty-Anne: 05:29

Lots of people that I'm ministering to do feel like that in their setting and to help them know here's somebody who you can relate to. We're gonna see how God meets her in this place and in this space. I take time for that to help them think about what it was like to be Hagar. How did she respond in her suffering? So she fled trying to flee from it.

Betty-Anne: 05:50

It was too much. I can't do this anymore. I'm out of here, which didn't help her in any way, because in her context that would have left her utterly destitute. There's no way for her to survive without her masters. So just wilderness.

Betty-Anne: 06:05

She couldn't be more literally in a wilderness, physically, personally. There's no one in the world who sees her as a person and cares for her, but there's someone beyond the world who does see. And he comes and meets her tenderly. I just, I don't hear any recrimination. There's just kindness.

Betty-Anne: 06:25

And he meets her and he sends her back, which I think is really significant. I love narratives where people get to escape their suffering, but that's not very common really to be, for paying attention. It's more often this kind of thing where he's saying, It is really hard. I see you though, and I'm with you in that. And you have to go back out of this encounter she has with God.

Betty-Anne: 06:48

She's given strength enough and courage enough to go back and face what she's been called to do. So those are pieces I'm using to set up an understanding for how God meets her here. And then she knows him as the God who sees her and calls the place that he's a God of seeing, I think is the exact translation. And I think that's what we all need to know. Like we all need to know, he really sees me.

Betty-Anne: 07:11

I'm not here all alone in this difficulty or suffering I'm going through, but the one who holds it all in his hands sees me and sees my story. And it's such a personal exchange. I love that about this one. It's, you can tell that there's been a real personal encounter, which we're all longing for. Yeah.

Mike: 07:29

No, that's really good. And as you were sharing through that, I'm sitting here thinking through counselees that link in terms of the issue specific thing that brings them to counseling. And even with Jesse's last episode where it really did draw them back to trusting the Lord. Right?

Betty-Anne: 07:44

Yeah.

Mike: 07:44

So in in in life's transient nature of things constantly changing and at the rate things move in our lives and needing something that doesn't change. Yeah. Yeah. How that draws us in trust. And then this particular submission, like you said in the onset of our time together, is that this really does draw people back to just trusting the Lord, especially when we don't trust people or someone has Yeah.

Mike: 08:06

Betrayed us or someone who has objectified us or someone who has even represents the name of the Lord and we were treated unfairly. We were treated poorly. And and then there here comes the Lord and sets that. But then to your point, didn't give her the option to escape her suffering, but brought her back to it with a level of resolve that was focused on God's purposes and all of that, which is hard which is a hard thing to do. Any thoughts?

Betty-Anne: 08:34

Yeah. I do actually, and this is something that I would maybe very well talk about. I have some theories on why that was important. And I always tell counselors, this is a theory.

Mike: 08:45

Yes.

Betty-Anne: 08:45

I don't have any factual statements from the scripture to say this is why God is doing something, but I think it's good for us to be able to ask that question. Why did she have to go back? I think that's a legitimate question. And to pretend it doesn't exist is pretty naive, and it's not actually helpful. And so I've spent a lot of time just contemplating God.

Betty-Anne: 09:05

Why did Hagar have to go back? And I do think Ishmael was an important part of God's story. He needed to survive. And in order for that, she had to be in a place where there was provision for her. I don't think that she could have lived apart from the care of Abram and Sarai.

Betty-Anne: 09:23

And then the other piece I think is I think because Ishmael's an important part of the story, his connection to Abram was important. And if she'd run off and had this child somewhere else, maybe there would have been no knowledge of where did that kid come from, even if he did survive. So I, and I feel like if we can look at it and come up with some potential answers with why, it helps us then to have a sense that I may not really ever understand why I have to face the suffering I'm facing. It's good for me to think about that there is a why, and God does know what the why is. Yeah.

Betty-Anne: 09:57

I want to keep that really open handed because obviously I don't really know. But to me, those feel like they're two really plausible reasons that God might have said you have to go back.

Mike: 10:08

Yeah, it's

Betty-Anne: 10:09

it's served a purpose. Think it has. Yeah.

Mike: 10:12

Yeah. And it's it is good because I think that's also another I think this is also what helps us in biblical counseling where it gives us the opportunity to because sometimes biblical counseling is focused on as where it gets characterized or there's a character about, so here's two verses and call me in the morning, and that's biblical counseling methodology. But the reality is to your point, it's no. When you look at the text, begs questions that we need to that we need to ask. And that's part of that's part of trying to what's the theological construction of this situation?

Mike: 10:47

What am I supposed to draw from in order to understand who God is and how I'm supposed to see myself according to the Lord? And that's the interesting thing about this particular story, this narrative in encountering God, as you put it. He not only sees her, but, like, her response to that where it almost strengthens her. Because before it

Betty-Anne: 11:06

I think it does.

Mike: 11:07

Yeah. Because one of those things is, to your point, with different consolees and the nature and scope of what they're going through, that's the assumption in their unbelief is that God doesn't see me. God doesn't care.

Betty-Anne: 11:18

Yeah. Yeah. And then

Mike: 11:19

this is obviously countering that belief that we have in our flesh. Yeah. There's no Yeah. Does see us. It gives us strength because she was like, what like, she was seeking for purpose in a sense.

Mike: 11:32

It's like she was at the mercy of someone else's desire

Betty-Anne: 11:36

Yeah.

Mike: 11:36

And discarded and was looked at with contempt.

Betty-Anne: 11:40

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: 11:41

So at the horizontal level within just human nature towards in the way that we treat each other, like, is a very strong text of encouragement, edification for a brother and sister in Christ who have either not just moved from, like, forgetting, but also believing that God doesn't see. And God not seeing and caring are almost synonymous with each other. Yeah.

Betty-Anne: 12:04

Yeah. I think we're gonna be most likely tempted to feel that way and believe that when life is hard, that somehow the suffering is evidence that he doesn't actually see me or he doesn't actually care about me. And so I do think that's what's so lovely about this story is that we see the depth of her suffering and it's deep and God does see her and he does care and she still has to suffer, which means that we can know that he sees the suffering, and he's it's not an indicator of his position with us. Yeah.

Mike: 12:35

No. That's good. And then also so, you know, for those of you out here who are listening to this episode and hearing that as we're Betty Ann and I are working through the text and just thinking through theologically the implications of what this is saying versus our human fleshly impulses and responses and beliefs that we have. But what I like about this particular submission, Betty Ann, is some of the reflection questions that you ask in the text are from the text. And this is obviously so for those of you who haven't picked up any of these ABC resources, these counseling through books, that's the purpose of these is it's trying to help strengthen our counseling process.

Mike: 13:12

It's like when we read through a text when we read through a text, it is so we can ask good questions. So it's part of the data gathering. So when we're thinking through a biblical text according to someone's life and we're drawing correlations to someone's life and God's word. In this particular submission, Betty Ann provides a lot of really good questions that would help in data gathering, and how is this person understanding God's word? So, again, so these discussion questions really help us as counselors continue to develop and strengthen our data gathering and helping from the text, people.

Mike: 13:51

And so I just wanted to go through some of these questions that you had shared. And Betty Ann's actually getting over being sick, and I'm gonna give her a break for a moment. She can restore her voice a little bit. It may be a little dry from the coughing. At any rate, though, just some of these questions, questions for reflection.

Mike: 14:07

How did Hagar respond in this deep trial? So we kinda see that from the text. And, obviously, the goal of these questions to help our counselees look deeper into the stories of the of scripture. Because a lot of times it's I think that's the hardest part, and Betty Ann, I would love to hear some of your thoughts on this. But a lot of times in scripture, when we're sitting down with a consolee and as the counselor, we have a particular text in mind.

Mike: 14:31

And then we go to the text, we read it, or we may ask them to read it. And they're like, what are your thoughts on that? They don't really have a lot of thoughts. Yeah. And so the the these are good resources to help the counselor help the counselee.

Mike: 14:42

It's a Jerry Maguire moment. Help me help you. Yeah. Any thoughts on that?

Betty-Anne: 14:46

Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like one of the keys one of the first things I'm doing with the counselee is trying to figure out if god they actually talk through the scripture. Like, can God talk to them through the scripture in a way that's meaningful to them? So, yep, part of what we're doing with these kinds of assign is helping with that, like, helping them learn how to have a meaningful interaction with God in this, in a way that's very practical for them.

Betty-Anne: 15:11

So in that first question, how did Hagar respond in this deep trial? She tried to escape it. I'm gonna spend some time talking about ways we escape. We try to escape from our suffering. And there are many of them.

Betty-Anne: 15:23

One of hers was to actually physically run, but sometimes it's we escape to social media or we escape with a substance or there's all kinds of ways that we are working on escaping. And then I want them to think about what did God like, how did God respond to that? And I love that he doesn't chastise her. Like, he's not hard on her because she's done this. He meets her right there in the escape and says, I have a better plan.

Betty-Anne: 15:45

That's the conversation I want to have with them is get them there and and realize that's how God wants to interact with you. He's not mad at you for your escape, but he wants you to know it's not the best plan. I have something better for you than this escape you're choosing or whatever. Yeah.

Mike: 16:00

And I like the one of the other questions, and this is always and I think this is a universal proposal and proposition in biblical counseling, and that is God met Hagar with the offer of God himself. That Yeah. That was what God was offering. He was like, I don't she didn't she didn't trust her master according to the text. Right?

Mike: 16:21

She was a servant. She didn't trust her master, the intentions and motives, but she didn't have a choice, right, given the conditions of her context. What's a slave gonna do against the master? Right? But God met her there, and he offered himself.

Mike: 16:35

Yeah. That's huge. And a lot of times in biblical counseling, no matter what the situation is with a consulate, that's our offer. That is the gospel. It like, it doesn't get more gospely than that.

Mike: 16:46

I can say

Betty-Anne: 16:47

it that way.

Mike: 16:47

Any thoughts on that?

Betty-Anne: 16:48

I agree a 100. I love that. Yeah. I do love that. And I think that often when people come to us for they're looking for something.

Betty-Anne: 16:55

They're not necessarily looking for God. And I think we need, like, a story like this and many others to help grow their vision of the attractiveness of having God so that it's not what he can do for me, but it's him that I really want. That's such a big goal of mine to help them. Because I, like, I think people often want escape from their suffering. Like, I want it to be fixed.

Betty-Anne: 17:17

And they might not even be looking for a bad way to escape, but sometimes that very suffering is a means to knowing God in a way that we could never have known him without it. And I want them to know it will be better to have the suffering and God than get rid of the suffering and not get what you might have got of God if you persevered through it. So, yeah, I think it's I love this story, actually. I just love it. Yeah.

Mike: 17:42

Yeah. That's good. And then so just in in wrapping up, so that we gave a little bit from Betty Ann's submission as far as, like, in session, the context of the text. And then after the session, right, so what are we sending the consuli home with? What growth assignments are we going to have to engage with to help them grow in helping seeing God as Elroy?

Mike: 18:05

Right? What Yeah. What are we trying to do? And so Betty Ann provided many after assignments, engagement opportunities with the Lord to encounter the Lord. One of the ones I wanted to look at here specifically was you encouraged in the after session assignment to read Psalms 91 verses one through four.

Mike: 18:23

And in reading that text, she encouraged the counselor list all the metaphors this that the psalmist uses to communicate God's care for his people. This passage speaks of God being our shelter. Do you struggle in believing that you see God or that God sees and cares for you? And then, obviously, I wanted to share the text because wherever you guys are listening, you're not gonna pull up Psalm 91, especially, hopefully, if you're driving, you're not doing that. And, anyway, I will read it for us.

Mike: 18:50

Psalm 91 verses one through four, and the heading is my refuge and my fortress in the ESV. But Psalm ninety one one through four, he who dwells in the shelter of the most high will abide in the shadow of the almighty. I will say to the Lord, my refuge and my fortress, my God in whom I trust, for he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings, you will find refuge. His faithfulness is a shield and a buckler.

Mike: 19:19

Those metaphors, obviously, and this is the beauty again of biblical counseling is this once we work through a text and we help the counselee brighten their gaze, shed a little bit more light on a text that shows them that God's word is actually more acquainted with their situation than what they could ever imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Then giving them supplemental texts like this and then like metaphors because that's something concrete that they can relate to. Any thoughts on that, Vadhya?

Betty-Anne: 19:49

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like one of the things that's awesome about this passage is there are several potential metaphors that might really resonate. And if I was doing this with somebody, I might ask, which one of those feels the most meaningful to you? And it might be any of them.

Betty-Anne: 20:04

And then why does that one resonate with you? What's that like? Like, the one that resonates with me is the under his wings, you will find refuge and that sense of mother bird. I have I actually have an album in my photos

Mike: 20:15

Yeah.

Betty-Anne: 20:15

Of mother birds sheltering their chicks under their wings. And I just love that picture so much. And I think about what's it like to be there. There's warmth, there's comfort. There's a sense where you can hear as part.

Betty-Anne: 20:27

I'm gonna probably, that will be the one I likely lean into unless they resonate with one of the other ones. But we do want to give people a picture that helps them know the security or the safety or the comfort, whatever they're needing of finding their shelter, their refuge in God.

Mike: 20:45

Yeah. That's really good because obviously on the flip side of that for the person, counsel lead, the one who feels like they're not seen or cared for or heard, they're being covered under what you just said. And what's being covered? Their weakness, their vulnerability, everything that would expose them because they're weak, but it's God's protection, and it's not exposing their weaknesses because that was she was being exploited.

Betty-Anne: 21:10

Yeah. Totally.

Mike: 21:11

You know what I mean? And so the Lord

Betty-Anne: 21:13

Yeah. Came Absolutely.

Mike: 21:14

And exposed that in in a way that he offered himself to draw him or to draw her back to himself. Those are though this is just an example of how we would work through a text in this particular instance, in this submission of counseling through God's attributes of like how we would how does God's attributes fashion our counseling sessions? Like, do we consider those truths about God and who he is in the counseling session? And this is a wonderful example of how that would look. So Betty Ann, thank you for this submission.

Mike: 21:48

And you're right. This is a wonderful text. Any concluding thoughts that you would encourage our counselors in just as they continue to faithfully serve the Lord in their counseling?

Betty-Anne: 21:57

I feel like one of the things is what you do with these books. And I think that as counselors, we should just use them for our own personal lives first, because if these homework assignments, if these passages have done a work in our lives, it's gonna be that much more that we have to offer people that we wanna serve. So, yeah, I think that's probably the main. These are great resources. I love them.

Betty-Anne: 22:19

Thanks.

Mike: 22:19

Yeah. Yeah. We look forward to your future submissions too. And all of our partnering with Canada and all the things we're doing.

Betty-Anne: 22:27

We love your partnership.

Mike: 22:29

We're We're loving your excited. Betty Ann, thank you again for your time. And I hope and pray that there is some expediency and you getting well and the coughing and everything. I know Shauna is still sick, which is why she's not here in studio with me, unfortunately. Her voice is raspy, but that's not the issue.

Mike: 22:46

The issue is that her cough can become uncontrollable. And I wouldn't be able to do a I wouldn't be able to make it through a podcast. Thankfully, Betty and you were able to make it through, so thank you for that. Thank you guys for listening, and we'll see you guys next time.