Mike: 00:00

Welcome to speak the truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.

Mike: 00:09

Hello. Hello. Hello. I am in the studio, Han Solo, but I do have a special guest. He's still special.

Mike: 00:16

He's been on here several times, but he's still special. As a matter of fact, by the time you're listening to this podcast, you've probably heard the most downloaded podcast for Speak the Truth, and that person is none other than Jesse Perkle from Southern Hills, the church at City Station in Carrollton, Georgia. Jesse, how are doing?

Jesse: 00:35

Doing great, Mike. It is wonderful to be with you today, man.

Mike: 00:37

Likewise, man. We are glad to have you. And so we wanted to bring Jesse on because he is the heavyweight contender for the most downloaded podcast, Speak the Truth. At any rate, though, we wanted to bring him on to begin our miniseries on counseling through God's attributes. And counseling through God's attributes, part of ABC Rez, ABC has these resources.

Mike: 01:01

And this is the most recent one. This was from earlier this year at the ABC called the council conference, where we had our pre conference, and then we had this book go along with that pre conference. And so what's special about this particular ABC res counseling through God's attributes is we wanted to obviously focus on because we've done several of these. I think this is I believe this is the sixth release of the Counseling Through books at this point. And so Jesse and his contribution earlier back in 2023 when we did Counseling Through the Old Testament, and Jesse was focusing on Jeremiah two thirteen, and his topic on that particular text was idolatry.

Mike: 01:41

And so likewise, the goal of these particular mini series in the Counseling Through books is we wanna help you counselors. How do we counsel? How are we going through the text? How are we in terms of our methodology as biblical counselors? How are we engaging with the biblical text in session and out of session?

Mike: 01:59

And so we wanted to start off with Jesse. And today we're gonna focus on in his particular submission was immutable, God's attribute of immutability, the fact that God doesn't change. Jesse, why did you choose that particular attribute?

Jesse: 02:13

Yes. Great question. And what it really comes down to on how I picked that one is it is, it has become a big theme in my own counseling, I would say in our ministry within the last maybe year and a half, we've seen many counsel leads who in some form have been struggling with questions, about God. That may be doubt about their salvation. That may be doubt because of a particular circumstance in their life, some suffering, some betrayal.

Jesse: 02:41

And I found myself returning to this doctrine fairly often to really drive home the point, the truth, biblical truth, that God does not change and that our circumstance, however difficult it might really be, is not evidence that God has changed. And so that's how I came to this one.

Mike: 03:01

Yeah, that's good. And actually, obviously, to somebody who's got a lot of things going on in their life, especially life transitions, circumstances, job change, the things that just continually move forward in our lives, God's immutability actually is a pretty good comfort. I agree. I agree. Jesse, you wanna walk us through just the summary of this particular submission of choosing this text and just this particular topic of God's immutability.

Jesse: 03:26

Yes, absolutely. I would love to. I'll begin here with this quotation from Wayne Grudem and his systematic theology. He says this about God's immutability. God is unchanging in his being, perfections, purposes, and promises.

Jesse: 03:41

Yet God does act and feel emotions and he acts and feels differently in response to different situations. And so I like to say this is we don't wanna confuse this with a kind of dry human stoicism as it pertains to God, but that for us, any human being who is a person in need of change, that it's good news that we can be rooted and grounded in a God who does not change. And that's actually really good news that we can cling to him in the midst of the change that we need. As far as in a session with a counsellee and how I might try to work through this, I'm already mentioned, I tend to turn to this doctrine most explicitly when I'm helping someone with assurance or something related to assurance there, suffering with, this could be a bodily ailment, this could be a betrayal, this could be a loss of a job, a loss of a family member, this could be grief, right? Yeah.

Jesse: 04:37

A number of different things. And a lot of times when this happens, when trust starts to break down humanly, and this could be even something from a counselor's past, there's a sense in which I think we project that onto God with these people who were really close to me, who love me, if they have changed and if they have betrayed me in a way that is, that has profound depth, how can I trust if God allowed that to happen? How can I trust that he is not the same way as that person was? And the doubt that fills our minds I think is just prime real estate to talk about this doctrine. One of the things I like to emphasize with counselees in this setting is that a change in our circumstance does not indicate a change in God and that we want to root what we believe about the person of God in the scriptures rather than in our circumstance.

Jesse: 05:32

And if we're constantly looking at our circumstance to determine what we believe about God, then we're in trouble because our circumstance will change often. What I like to do first with a counseling and exploring this is just go to scripture. Oftentimes, I'll do that maybe even before giving them this big word immutable. Yeah. But I'll read from James one seventeen here.

Jesse: 05:55

James says this, every good gift and every perfect gift is from above coming down from the father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. And I love this verse simply because what James is helping us with here, again, is that God doesn't change. It's a simple point. It's not incredibly complicated here to see that there's no variation or shadow in God due to change. And that's good news.

Jesse: 06:25

That is extremely good news when we are confronted with harsh realities or even extreme doubts. And so I'll often ask the counsellee at that point, Hey, what what stands out to you in this verse? What do you really appreciate about what James is saying here? Maybe what's difficult for you in your current situation that makes this hard to believe maybe or hard to trust. I'll often there's when I'll maybe introduce that word.

Jesse: 06:52

I'm quick to tell my counselors even when I'm introducing a word like immutable. Hey, there will be no quiz on this. I don't care if you forget this word when you walk out of the room, but I do want you to trust what it, you know, what it means. I want you to believe that God is unchanging and see how that's really good for you. And so reading this passage, I mentioned some other ones there in the contribution to the book there, Hebrews thirteen eight, Malachi three:six.

Jesse: 07:15

So I'll often read those or assign them as homework as well. And from that point, want to move in to whatever their circumstances. One of the ways that I like to talk about soul care is a, what I want to do with folks who I'm trying to help is to go back and forth between their life and the text of scripture in ways that are relevant to them, uphold the truth of God's word, but also moves deep into their suffering. And so this would be one of those cases where to read the text and then turn back into their life and just ask some questions. Hey, maybe someone didn't keep their word to you.

Jesse: 07:51

Can we explore what that's and how that's different from this God who does keep his word? Again, perhaps it was a parent and you're thinking about your childhood. Perhaps it was a spouse who has committed adultery that this could be really anyone of significance in their life and to explore that when trust breaks down, doubt fills the mind. Just to explore that with them with this scripture in the background, have found to be really helpful. And then I ask the question, how do you think that that doubt is at play in your life as it pertains to your relationship with the Lord?

Jesse: 08:24

Just to begin to explore that with them. Another question I'll ask them in session, even if this pertains to immutability, but even maybe would move a little bit outside of it possibly, it's just what promises of God are hard for you to believe right now? Often, especially with believers, they know some of these promises of God and have for many seasons in their life been clinging to them. But they may be in a season now where it's just really tough to believe. I love Jerry Bridge's book, Trusting God.

Jesse: 08:51

And he mentions God's, we tend to doubt God's sovereignty or God's wisdom or God's goodness. So those will be often three that I'll look at as well when we're suffering is, Hey, which one of these for you is hard to believe? Is it hard to believe that God's in control? Or is it hard to believe that God is really good? Or is it hard to believe that he's actually wise and knows what he's doing here?

Jesse: 09:13

And my point in asking those questions is not to immediately correct wrong doctrine, but again, just to explore that pain and those honest questions with them as we get ready to turn our attention back to the text or scripture. Like I said earlier, I want to help them in whatever their circumstance is to trust this unchanging, this immutable God. And so those passages, James, Malachi, Hebrews, they assert that God will keep his word and that what he's revealed to us in the scriptures, even if our circumstance tells us something different, that we can trust his word, we can trust his character toward us. And so to just put it another way, right? We can always trust God because he never changes.

Jesse: 09:56

And so I'll often ask them in session, hey, how does the how do these verses give you hope in what you're walking through? Often at this point, depending on what's going on in the counselors life, if they haven't already, is often a moment of tears in a session where those promises that they have believed for however many years they've been a believer, where they're now coming back to a point of, okay, I want to trust God in these areas. I want to submit to his word. I want to submit my thinking to his word, even as I continue to walk through this extremely difficult circumstance. And so exploring all that with them in session.

Jesse: 10:35

After a session for homework, this is where I could go a number of directions. But what I've put in this after session assignment here in this book starts with John six. I'm a huge fan of the gospel of John. If you were to sit in my discipleship group with me on a Thursday morning and ask the guys what my favorite book of the Bible is, think they'd all say John. Because no matter what we're reading, so we've been in our reading plan in Jeremiah and Lamentations this week.

Jesse: 11:06

And, but I can always find us a road back to the gospel of John. That is a theme in my counseling as well. And in particular, I have them read John six verses 35 to 40, and then get them to think through, which will help set up the next session, how what they're reading there in John chapter six pertains to all this that we just talked about as it pertains to God being immutable. In particular, one of the verses that I hope that they latch onto in John six would be verse 37, where Jesus says, All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. And so in particular with believers who are struggling with doubt about God's love for them, I think that's a verse that I'm going to zero in on in our next meeting to say, hey, I want you to know, I want you to really look and consider what Jesus says in part B of this verse that whoever comes to me, I will never cast out.

Jesse: 12:02

And that Jesus, the second person of the trinity, being immutable, is not going to change his mind on that. That whatever may be going on in your life, if you will come to him, he will have you. And that is such a comforting doctrine. It is such a comforting verse to embrace. And so that is one, as they're reading John six, that I'm praying throughout the week that the Holy Spirit would take that verse and just be the counselor throughout the week that I can't be.

Jesse: 12:31

To continue to just work God's word into their hearts, into their minds, in ways that produce all kinds of fruit beginning in their mind and then playing out into the rest of their life. Other things I'll have them do meditate on James one seventeen, like we read. One that I've started doing since actually submitting this to you guys over at ABC that I wanted to add in hopefully as a helpful assignment for those who are listening.

Mike: 12:56

Yeah.

Jesse: 12:56

I've tried in the last year to really incorporate songs as homework. And so the, I think for me, the natural one with this one would be the hymn, Great Is Thy Faithfulness. I find myself often talking about immutability alongside of faithfulness. And so in that hymn, great is thy faithfulness, we quote from James. They're near the beginning of the song.

Jesse: 13:19

There is no shadow of turning with thee. Thou changeth not thy compassions, they fail not as thou hast been, thou wilt forever be. And so to get counselors singing about the truth that they're learning, I think is really important. Just Paul and both, I think, Ephesians and Colossians impresses the importance of singing together but also I think individually can be helpful and so, that'd be another thing I would want them to do is, hey, sing about this truth that you're learning through the scriptures and let's just pray that again, god would help you trust in him and to actually believe in what this passage is giving to us here. And the next thing I'll have him do in homework is journal and think about how God's immutability speaks to his other attributes.

Jesse: 14:07

So what does it mean that God is immutably loving toward you? That he's immutably holy. That he's immutably sovereign. And that there's nothing in all creation that can change that. I think that's also a natural place to go.

Jesse: 14:21

But in Romans eight, the end, what can then separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus? And he gives us a big list that humanly, that's a bunch of suffering. And Paul's response is knowing all these things, right? We're more than conquerors through him who loved us. And I will go all around the Bible to look at those promises, to connect those promises to his character being immutable, to try to comfort a counsellee in the truth of God's word that they can trust him.

Jesse: 14:50

I think for me, it just continues to come down to that trusting this immutable God who is for us in Christ, and could not be more for us than he is, regardless of what may be going on in our world. Never as a way to make light of what's going on in our world, but as a way to give us a sure hope, a steady anchor there for our souls. That's the maybe the brief version, I think, Mike, of how I would try to lead a Kelly in a session on this theme, this attribute of God, and then assign some homework that continues to help develop this in their life.

Mike: 15:24

No, man. That's really good. Just a few things that you said, because I do wanna come back to that, because you were referring to when you oftentimes with counselors. So I wanna come back to that and where at least circumstantially, maybe issue specific where you see a lot of your focus being on the immutability of God. But some of the things that you mentioned as far as after session and

Jesse: 15:44

Mhmm.

Mike: 15:45

Giving them growth assignments, I think the singing and giving them songs or psalms to have is really helpful because oftentimes we begin to believe like, we begin to sing because of what we're believing in the moment. So that there is which is why I think there's a huge emphasis even in Colossians three ten through 13, for example, and 14, we're coming together and singing spiritual songs and hymns and psalms, and that there's that piece about and it because it ties us back to worship. Right? And that when we're singing, we're choosing to believe opposite of what our flesh, our feelings that that are impacting us in such a way where in that moment, we literally are choosing to believe what I know to be true about God when I don't know what's true about myself. Like, when I don't know where I'm feeling, what I'm feeling, if this is legitimate because it's strong.

Mike: 16:38

And I also appreciate just the focus that you had with that as well as far as there there's a level of irony and paradoxical nature in what we're asking the consul to embrace. Meaning, everything around them is changing. Everything around them is transient to Paul's point, second Corinthians 14 to 18 or six sixteen to 18. There's this transient nature of life that everything seems to change, but in the final analysis, it's not changing because the God who orchestrates all of time in history is moving things to a particular end. But to your point of it's almost like a grounding tool, not to sound therapeutic or anything.

Mike: 17:14

But Yeah. But I would argue, at least in that sort of vernacular, that's really what we're trying to get the consolee to embrace is this level of grounding in Christ in the nature of who God is so that in the frailty, the frustration, the confusion that they're immersed in in internally that to to believe those things outside of themselves becomes the grounding agent for them to engage in. And, man, I appreciate just your encouragement in this particular assessment of after session giving them growth assignments and things to focus on because it not only engages the intellect, but it engages the heart, right, the affections, and just the whole sort of a holistic approach to us being embodied souls. So any thoughts on that, man?

Jesse: 17:59

Particularly that last point there and engaging both at the level of the mind and the affections. I think that I've been extremely influenced over the course of my Christian life by John Piper, for example, who preaches a ton about that as it pertains to the affections. And I think that is, I think perhaps sometimes in biblical counseling and to speak for myself, that as much of an influence as that teaching has been on my life, I haven't always done a good job incorporating that into counseling. And so in the last year and a half, whatever it's been, really trying to focus on that. And I have seen good fruit.

Jesse: 18:36

That's I tell couples if I'm counseling a couple or even just an individual, hey, it may seem weird if it's not a normal habit for you to just sing together in your house. But I want you to really do it this week. And I'm going to ask you next week if you did it right. Or sing in the car, whatever it is that makes sense there. Sing with your children.

Jesse: 18:53

That's something that my wife and I love to do and have just seen good fruit in that in our own marriage and in our own parenting. And so I think the focus there and just seeing it there in Colossians, like you mentioned that passage, has been one that has made a lot of difference in my own life. And then, and counsellees who have, by God's grace, been able to help. And then I think one of the maybe times where it really started to drive home for me was, I think I could be wrong on this detail, Mike, but was, I'm pretty sure Mark Rogop was a speaker when you're at the conference, maybe even in the pre conference at the ABC National Conference. And he, I think it's in his book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, where he says, hope springs from truth rehearsed.

Jesse: 19:38

And I think singing amongst memorizing scripture, not to put the two against each other, but working together is a great way to rehearse truth. And I think when we can do that, comfort can come in both through the memorizing of a verse like James one seventeen, thinking about God's immutability, but also just through engaging the affections and singing, even for people who maybe wouldn't consider themselves singing people. I think you alluded to the fact that we are made to worship. We are worshipers. We will celebrate something, but learning to celebrate these wonderful trees about God is just incredible for the soul.

Mike: 20:16

No, I agree. Sorry. Was just as you were sharing that last thought, I immediately thought about Elf, the singing, right? How simple it is to sing, elevate your voice and talk with that tone and inflection. No, man.

Mike: 20:29

I agree. And it's funny. Right? Because everyone's, oh, I don't have a voice. It it honestly is really not even about the voice.

Mike: 20:35

It's about the belief. Right? It and it's the object of the song. Who what are you attributing those things to? And externally singing almost gives us audible version of the fact that I'm going beyond myself to look to something else because I'm singing about it.

Mike: 20:52

So there's something there's something special about that. Man, I appreciate that. I so for those of you who are listening, are you counselors? We're plugging. Like, maybe you can even do that in session.

Mike: 21:02

In the same way that counselees struggle reading God's word and prayer when they go home and they don't do those things. And because when they come back, they don't really engage as much because they're not really practicing outside of session. Use session time in session time to practice these things together. And I would argue that's a beautiful part of our methodology as biblical counselors is that's the discipling component to it. Right?

Mike: 21:24

It's like it's not like people come in, and they need to be adverse in prayer and memorization and meditation. No. They're doing these things because they need help. And I and again, I would argue a lot of the times that they're coming in is because the spiritual disciplines are very much lacking and they're discouraged. And I've incorporated that a lot into my counseling for sure is that as I've observed, a lot of counselees, man, they just they really struggle with being able to practice the spiritual disciplines when they go home and the hustle and bustle of life.

Mike: 21:55

And so it actually becomes a sweet opportunity for us for discipleship in the counseling room. Man, Jesse, brother, thank you for joining us, man. I appreciate your submission and your thoughts on that. But before I close out, I do wanna go back to the other question of you you alluded to it throughout in session, out of session as far as the the individual who's struggling with trust. But to be a little bit more specific in that, in your counseling, tended to be the issue specific things where you would, again bring back the immutability of the Lord to the counslee?

Jesse: 22:30

Yes. Yeah. Assurance. And I think that can take a few different forms. One of the things and I did a counseling class.

Jesse: 22:37

One of the things we do at our church occasionally on assurance, probably about four or five months ago now. And I would say we had several men and women in the class who, to use a counseling term, were dealing with scrupulosity. Scruples to the doubting disease as it pertained to their relationship with the Lord and honing in on this doctrine, this truth was really helpful for them. It wasn't an immediate help, right? But the more time we spent talking about it, the more helpful I think it was and really emphasizing with them that their relationship with the Lord is unchangeable in Christ, That God's immutability again is rooted in his character, not in our circumstance.

Jesse: 23:19

And so I would find myself helping them with I would try to be helpful with little sentences that were memorable. Something like, our assurance of salvation is rooted in the cross, not in my conscience. That's not to diminish the importance of the conscience scripture upholds.

Mike: 23:37

I would say that's the first John. That's the first that's that's scriptural. Right? That's that's John's point in first John. Yeah.

Jesse: 23:43

That's right. Yeah. When our hearts condemn us, he is craves in our hearts.

Mike: 23:45

Yeah.

Jesse: 23:46

That's right. That was a text we looked at in the class and that brought in it's our assurance is rooted in the cross, not in our circumstance. And to just sometimes in that struggle with scrupulosity, we can, and this is where I think singing is helpful, we can just play the game of going there. We will, our doubt can be so persuasive because we will just try to logic our way through why God has actually changed. Whereas, again, this biblical truth will root us back into the text and gives us something that we can sing about.

Jesse: 24:20

The church has sang about since its institution, right? God's faithfulness, even in the Old Testament with Israel, right? So many times in the Psalms in particular, I think Psalm 18 refers to God as a rock, right? Our fortress. Rocks don't change very much, right?

Jesse: 24:37

Like they're all of their rocks just sustain through all kinds of things. And so I think for me, that was one in our ministry that came up enough that we did a counseling class on it because scrupulosity and doubting of our assurance, our right standing with God. Just, and I'm still not exactly sure where, why we were in a season where that came up so often. But we, like I said, we had several men and women in our church where that was a struggle. And so for me, focusing on this doctrine just made a lot of sense theologically.

Mike: 25:09

No, that's good. I appreciate you honing in on the reality of assurance and really to your point, the danger of doubting, right? Yeah. And how singing becomes a safeguard against that doubt. So it disrupts the doubt.

Mike: 25:21

Yep. So that's yeah, man. That's a good point. Really good point. Man, Jesse, thank you again for joining us.

Mike: 25:28

Thank you for your partnership with ABC. We appreciate it, man, and thank you guys for listening. We'll see you guys next time.