Mike: 00:07

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello.

Shauna: 00:20

Yo. Yo. Yo. I'm excited to be back.

Mike: 00:23

Yeah. It's almost still foreign.

Shauna: 00:25

No. It's been a little while. No. Thanks for tuning in to speak the truth. We are gonna continue the series of counseling through bible narratives in the old testament.

Shauna: 00:34

I hope that you've already listened to our first podcast for freedom, for forgiveness with Andrew walking through Genesis 50. And today, we have another guest that has contributed to the book. And so if you don't have the book yet, go to christiancounseling.com. Get it. It's so incredible.

Shauna: 00:49

There's even a note section that you can literally have out right now and follow along as we talk about the scripture. But today, we're gonna be in Jeremiah two. Actually, a little typo in the first run of books that we had. I put Jeremiah three on accident. It was totally Shauna's fault.

Shauna: 01:04

So it's me me. I messed up. So if you have an old copy, just scratch that Jeremiah three out and put Jeremiah two. But in all the new copies, it will be correct. And so thank you for Jesse and for giving me in that little typo there.

Shauna: 01:15

But, hey, Jesse Purple. You so much for joining us today.

Jesse: 01:19

Yeah. So glad to be with you guys. Love ABC. Love to speak the truth. Happy to be here.

Shauna: 01:24

Yeah. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about you and Southern Hills and just everything that you're doing out there in Georgia?

Jesse: 01:29

Yeah. Absolutely. So we're a little bit West of Atlanta in a smaller town called Carrollton, and I serve at Southern Hills as the sole care pastor. So I started as an intern, interned for two years, 2016 to '18, then moved to part time from 2018 to 2020, and then went full time right in the midst of the pandemic there in 2020. And so I've served here mainly only in counseling, helped as an intern, get get the ministry started.

Jesse: 01:58

We started partnering with you guys probably in, I think, 2017 and have since come a long way in that. We've seen tons of fruit in our church and even in our community through biblical counseling, and we just we love it. It's the heartbeat of our church. We've also seen seen it impact so many families in our church, even my own. My wife and I and our two little girls.

Jesse: 02:21

Just everything that biblical counseling brings into that local church context, we just we love it, and we can never go back to not doing it.

Shauna: 02:30

That's so good. And thank you, guys. You your church actually did a video, a testimony video for us that we showed at this last conference and got really good feedback from. And you can actually see that on our website at christiancounseling.com. We've posted it there just to hear a little bit more from just even your teaching pastor and Heath that also have has taught and helped lead out in the biblical counseling there.

Shauna: 02:50

And just to hear about more just your community center, tell them how your church is designed because it's like a it's a community center, right, where people can come all throughout the week, open up with community. Right?

Jesse: 03:00

So our, Yes. That's exactly right. And so our church, I guess it's we officially moved in here in 2018. We had really, our pastor, Shannon, he had this vision. What would it look like if our church were able to gather more than once or twice a week and have opportunities for other people in our community, believers and unbelievers, to to be here and to interact with them?

Jesse: 03:26

And so we generosity of our church, and we built a community center. It's called City Station. And so here we have a state certified Christian preschool. We have student housing. We've got 60 beds of college students who live in the building.

Jesse: 03:41

We have a restaurant. We have a fitness center. Our auditorium that we would use on Sunday morning for for worship doubles during the week as a open gym for basketball and pickleball and things like that. We have our counseling rooms also double as regular meeting rooms that people in the community can rent. We have a few other big conference rooms that a lot of the big businesses in town rent them pretty much weekly.

Jesse: 04:06

We have all kinds of people in and out of our building that we just get to interact with, share the gospel with, counsel, and just we have all those opportunities. And so it's it's almost like we're a we're a kind of a mobile church where we have to set up and tear down all the time, but thankful for all of our church member members who are, you know, willing to do that week in and week out. We couldn't do really any of this without our church members.

Shauna: 04:31

It's so cool. Like, here in Texas, they'll start up churches. We'll rent school like, spaces from schools and stuff and do the tear down and set up and everything to where it's their church is only on kind of that Sunday. And you've done the opposite. You're like, no.

Shauna: 04:44

This is what our church is for the this is what we want our building to look like from a community standpoint, and then we set up for worship on Sunday. I think that is incredible. What a great way to be on mission for your city and just build community and relationships outside of just worship on a Sunday service. That's really cool. And thank you that or that's pretty incredible that you have those leaders that will set up and tear down.

Mike: 05:06

Yeah.

Shauna: 05:06

And they're still hanging in there. Hopefully, you have a good rotation schedule there because that's obviously a lot of hard work. So that's cool. Yeah. And you guys are also you and Alicia are training leaders for the equipped to council material.

Shauna: 05:19

Thank you for leading out on that where you're able to not only use ETC for enrichment for your church, but also help people become certified in biblical counseling.

Jesse: 05:27

Mhmm. We love it. Equipped to counsel on the level one has just been huge. We tell our church all the time even if and, of course, we want them to counsel. We're all counselors.

Jesse: 05:37

We know that. But whether that's formal or informal, but we just think it it'd be beneficial for every one of our church members. We think it's that good. It gives such a good foundation for what one another ministry ought to look like. So we're we really appreciate John Henderson and the Equity Council and ABC and all that you guys do.

Shauna: 05:57

Yeah. Thank you. That's we appreciate you too. I guess people are probably ready for us to jump into Jeremiah. And so Michael and I, we actually, as just in our marriage, we have decided to do what we call word feast.

Shauna: 06:10

And so throughout the week, we have one night for two hours that we have scheduled where we just read scripture together. And so we take turns reading the chapters and just get, like, a huge dose of God's word. And so sometimes schedules, we end up having to be flexible with it. But for the most part, it's like a committed time that we're able to come together. And right now, we're actually reading Jeremiah.

Shauna: 06:32

And we it's taken us forever, it felt, to get through.

Mike: 06:35

Like, we're on chapter, like, 44 or something like that.

Shauna: 06:38

Yeah. And, man, there's just obviously so much that's happening in this. And you obviously can't get through the whole book with your counselees, but I love how Jeremiah obviously gives us these sections of scripture that can just be, what, two, four, five verses, but make such a great impact in our lives and in our hearts and just obviously knowing who he is and and what's what God is doing through his life and how he's working. And so, anyway, so could you just kinda maybe set the tone for us and just let us know why you chose this scripture? And then we can walk through how you use it in a counseling session and then what we could maybe do for as after session assignment.

Jesse: 07:16

Yeah. Absolutely. And so this the imagery that that Jeremiah uses here, I just think is really powerful here in Jeremiah too and uses imagery throughout this book. But particularly here, I think it's been helpful for me personally. I think one of the first times I really wrestled with this, I was I can't remember if I was a college student or if I graduated at that point, but was at a conference and John Piper, it was one of the one of the texts that he preached on was here in Jeremiah two, and it just came to life for me, helped me see some of my own idolatry, some of my own ways that I had forsaken the Lord.

Jesse: 07:53

And so it it was a powerful imagery for me. I think image imagery is helpful in counseling because it gives men and women something to remember throughout their day to day life, that they can see that that picture and the one they look at here. And I think also just from a counseling standpoint, I think there are seasons for the counselor that can be where counseling can be difficult for any number of reasons. And I think as we you guys are reading Jeremiah right now. As you read Jeremiah, it's really evident that Jeremiah is not in a very favorable season to his ministry.

Jesse: 08:28

He is, if I remember right, I think he only has two converts in his ministry. And so he's not seeing a ton of fruit. And I referenced there in the book that he's he's known as the weeping prophet. You could also just call him an an enduring prophet because he he stays faithful to the Lord and keeps calling the people back to to faithfulness to the Lord as well. And there's a lot going on like you said in Jeremiah, but, essentially, I would say he's he's pleading with Judah to to repent, to return to the Lord, to stop chasing idols.

Jesse: 09:04

Mhmm. And so from Jeremiah two let me go ahead and read these verses here. Jeremiah two

Shauna: 09:10

And just really quick, like, when as he's, like, calling them to repentance and saying judgment of the lord, it's not like this little piffy statement here. He is saying, the Lord said, and he's saying he will destroy you. He will wipe you out. And the people, you're just, like, seeing what he's telling the people and how the people just end up rejecting it. Right?

Shauna: 09:33

Michael, how would you summarize that from what we've been reading over the last few weeks?

Mike: 09:38

Yeah. Outside of what Jesse's clearly gonna address in this. But, yeah, I think even, Shauna, and you mentioned us going through and reading through Jeremiah, it's it's unmistakable to see the reality of idolatry. And when a people continue to pursue a message that is self serving and their idols and to be called to speak against that. And Jesse, like you mentioned, his conversion rate was not very successful.

Mike: 10:02

But but he was successful in that. Like you pointed out, he was faithful to the Lord. And, man, it's it is difficult because in counseling, oftentimes, we have to reorient people's thinking, their idolatrous thinking to a level that is trying to get them consistent with understanding what God's word says and drawing them back to him, which is obviously what you're getting into with the reality of these broken cisterns. Yeah.

Jesse: 10:26

That's good.

Shauna: 10:27

Ugh. It's just it's not only what we're seeing from Judah's standpoint, but just even the life of Jeremiah and his faithfulness and just him having to continue to go to the Lord. Can you imagine just serving the Lord in this particular way and being called to this? You're so there might be some weary counselors and pastors out there that might be listening to this specific podcast. I just wanna encourage you.

Shauna: 10:48

Let you know, as you read Jeremiah even more so than what Jesse's gonna walk us through in this in in Jeremiah two is just realizing just how God's steadfast love and his it's just his faithful Jeremiah's faithfulness in the Lord and then, obviously, the Lord's faithfulness to Jeremiah. And so I feel like there's gotta be a way that how you set this up, just letting them know about this. Right? The Lord sent reminders of his goodness, and he longed for the faithfulness of Judah. And Judah continued to not repent as Jeremiah was communicating clearly what the Lord was saying.

Shauna: 11:22

And then we go into why is that because of their idols. And then now we're gonna let them sit in Jeremiah two. And so I'm so thankful that you wrote on this passage because I think it's such an important one. Okay. And then now you said you were gonna go ahead and read it.

Shauna: 11:35

So what version of scripture are you using? Are you doing ESV? Or

Jesse: 11:39

I'm ESV.

Shauna: 11:41

That's Okay.

Jesse: 11:41

Yep. Yes, ma'am. English standard. Very good. K.

Jesse: 11:44

Alright. So here is Jeremiah two verses 11 through 13. Has a nation changed its gods even though they are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit. Be appalled, o heavens, that's it.

Jesse: 12:00

Be shocked. Be utterly desolate, declares the lord. For my people have committed two evils. They have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and chewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water. And so you've got right at the beginning here, you've got these questions that, you know, that the Lord is asking that, does the nation ever change its gods for something that aren't gods?

Jesse: 12:29

And you can I'll address a couple of times the folly that I think the Lord is addressing here. And he says, my people have changed their glory for that which doesn't profit. So this is not an equal exchange. Right? The exchanging of the Lord for an idol is to go from everything to nothing because these idols can't profit.

Jesse: 12:50

And he called upon this is similar, I think, in Isaiah, but Jeremiah, the Lord here, called upon the heavens as a witness almost. And you could, like, just think about it as courtroom imagery here, and he calls the heavens as a witness. Be appalled. Be shocked. Be utterly desolate.

Jesse: 13:11

And that's really serious. Like you guys were saying, this is a really serious thing going on, this idolatry. And so what I like to do with counsel leads is well, first of all, before I would do this assignment, I there's a lot we've already done with them. Right? I would have already gotten to know them pretty well.

Jesse: 13:29

I wanna know their story. Like Mike Emlett, categories of sufferer, sinner, saint, get to know them. I wanna make sure they know the gospel, where, you know, where they at faith wise, or they do they trust Christ? A lot of that has already happened. Also, kind of some biblical teaching on the heart, all that has probably already happened because before before I really wanna unpack idolatry, I wanna I just wanna teach on the heart and how that how idolatry really comes through the heart.

Jesse: 13:58

There's really no other way for it to come through. And so in in biblical counseling, we're not we're not just cleaning up corpses. We are people who care about the heart of the counseling, not just behavior modification. And so I would have already, on a couple of sessions, would have probably already covered all that before I get here. But then when we get here, also wanna probably help them understand what idolatry is.

Jesse: 14:21

And I usually just make it as simple as I can. It's worshiping something other than the one true God. We're all created as worshipers. That's what our heart does. We we were regardless of what anyone says they believe out there in the world, we're worshipers.

Jesse: 14:37

God made us that way, whether it's him, the true god, or whether it's an idol. And so I have that question there in the book. The question is never do we worship, but what or whom do we worship? And and then moving in here, Jeremiah gives this this imagery that I mentioned, these two different sources of water. And sometimes I'll do this in counseling there.

Jesse: 15:03

I think I get this from the ESV study bible, which those can be so helpful, by the way, you're a counselor listening to this. There there are three different ways in this region that the people could have gotten water. So they could have gotten water from a a stream or a spring. That's usually what they'll call living water. That's the best way to get it.

Jesse: 15:21

There's groundwater that'll be collected in a well, and then there's runoff water that can be collected into a cistern 12 gig, some pit and a limestone, plaster it so that it doesn't seep out. But but those can also collect some nasty, dirty things in them as well, and it's really the worst way to get water. And the imagery that that Jeremiah uses here is that these waters aren't the they're not just regular old cisterns. They're broken ones. And so the broken cistern, it can't even hold water.

Jesse: 15:56

You can if you could picture, it's muddy and dirty, full of sludge, probably has some bugs, mosquito larvae in it, things like that. It can't hold water. And so that's what's happened in this exchange. They've exchanged the fountain of living water, this good, fresh, flowing water, and instead have dug out for themselves broken cisterns that can't hold any water at all. And so for Jeremiah, he's symbolizing their idolatry, the the Baal worship with this imagery.

Jesse: 16:33

You know, Judah has turned to broken cisterns, and it's really serious. It's also really tragic, the folly of this, which one of us in our right mind would turn from a wonderful, healthy source of water into one full of sludge and filth that really what you're getting is not even water anyway. It but that's the picture here. When we exchange the Lord for anything else, really, it's like turning from a living water to a broken cistern. And that's usually that imagery can be really helpful with counselors, especially once we relate it to other things in their lives.

Jesse: 17:15

They probably are not bowing down to bail statues or things like that, But there's a lot of other ways in our day that we do turn to broken cisterns. And so I like to go in the book here what my idols look like today. I like to go to Colossians three verse five. So jumping into the New Testament to help us with some definitions here. But so Paul in Colossians three verse five, he says, put to death, therefore, what is earthly in you, sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Jesse: 17:53

And so you've got these inward desires, especially, I think, covetousness there, this desire for more, maybe materialism, whatever we wanna call it, that the New Testament would call idolatry signifies in the heart this exchange where we're no longer seeking after God's word, Christ, but we just want all these other things. So maybe that's sexual morality. Maybe that's evil desire. Maybe that's covetousness. Something that just as a helpful question, and I like that in our training, equip the council training, this is something when we go over this kind of stuff that I put before our counselors as a way that a real practical question, I think, of how can I know if something in my life has crossed over into idolatry, this over desire?

Jesse: 18:42

Maybe if I'm desiring this thing more than the Lord. The question I like to ask is, I, in good faith or with a clean conscience, could I thank God for whatever this thing is? Whether that's this desire this sexual desire, right, if we're talking about pornography, can I, in good conscience, can I thank God for this? Of course, the answer to that example is no. You can't.

Jesse: 19:08

But that I think that question can help us see, man, even things that we would call good can cross over into can cross over into idolatry. And so there's this exchanging in the heart. Anytime we put our desires on a pedestal and we think we're gonna go our way rather than God's way, we're turning to a broken cistern. And that might have a thousand different forms that it might take, and that's why it's important, I think, to really know the counsellee who you're sitting with because you're gonna few sessions in, you may begin to see some of this in their life. And I bet it's because in biblical counseling, usually, you have a willing counselee.

Jesse: 19:49

I bet one of the reasons they've come to counseling, even if they can't articulate it, is that they're getting tired of muddy water. They know that these things to which they've been churning aren't actually able to help them. And so a lot of times I think they're somewhat aware of that when they sign up for biblical counseling, That they've tried other things, they've tried to change on their own, they've even maybe tried to deal with their suffering through some of these meetings, and they found it's not working, it's not good, it's not healthy. So that's how I would walk through what might it look like today. And again, you could give a dozen or so examples there.

Jesse: 20:29

One recently, I was working with a council lead through it's been a few months ago, but we were talking through this, Jeremiah two and broken cisterns, and we were walking through some forms of kind of sexual morality. That's one of the ones mentioned there in in Colossians three. And one of the things that that he really brought up my counselee was how one of the difficult things for him in forsaking the idolatry, forsaking sexual morality in that case was just the way that it's celebrated, the way that for him that was a friend group and even just the culture of the Internet, they celebrated some of these things, encouraged some of these things in his life. And we really interacted with, okay. What does it look like in the midst of a culture that celebrates it to to be an exile, to be someone who is not gathering around these broken sisters and celebrating them.

Jesse: 21:31

And I think that again, I've I've mentioned the folly here, but I think one of the many follies of idolatry is culturally and even sometimes, unfortunately, Christians can gather around these broken cisterns and celebrate them.

Shauna: 21:47

Yep.

Jesse: 21:48

You could think obviously about any number of cultural issues here in which people gather around and celebrate them. And it's just read the book of Proverbs. Right? So many things come to mind, but just the folly of gathering around and celebrating water that can't do anything good for you.

Shauna: 22:06

Yeah. That's so

Jesse: 22:07

It'll make you sick.

Shauna: 22:09

Yeah. So good. And I just I love this because I think this is such a practical scripture and discussion and what a fruitful one it can become and just really giving men and women the clarity and even us. Right? We need to take this scripture to heart and line it up with what's going on in our own heart.

Shauna: 22:29

But in just three short scripture verses, right, we're always thinking, oh, we only have an hour with our counselee. And with three scriptures, you not only give them the visual and explain it from living water to muddy water, but then you're able to practically say, okay. We have two sins here being committed. One, you're forsaking God. And the second is you're going somewhere else for that source of fulfillment.

Shauna: 22:54

So let's talk about this. How have you forsaken God? And where are you going? Where is that object? And where is that desire that you're wanting that's you're trying to find within the world?

Shauna: 23:06

And then and how easy that is for all of us to own because what you just said, in a lot of ways, these things are celebrated, accepted. Almost if you don't do it, you could be like you said, an exile, which I think is such a good clarity and what a great conversation to be in. And then you're sticking in scripture. You're just saying, I'm not making this word up. We're going to Colossians three where God has given us clarity of really what is idolatry and what does this look like.

Shauna: 23:35

And so there's just so much fruit here from a biblical standpoint where you can stay right in God's text and then immediately apply it to their life and their heart. And so I just think this is one of those texts that every biblical counselor, every pastor, every ministry leader needs to know to understand, to grasp in a way that this is a part of every like, any person that you counsel, this should be one passage that's always used no matter what they're going through. It should be always used at some point in the session for them to learn that long after they're gone from counseling with you, they understand it in a way that it's, like, constantly being applied. Like, their heart is constantly being evaluated, that they're helping speak this into the lives of other people because it's vital that us as believers understanding where we may have done even realizing it, but gotten off the path and we're drinking muddy water and not the living water. And what would you say to that, Michael?

Mike: 24:33

No. I think that's all relevant and good, and I think it goes back to something that that Jesse said in the beginning about just the things that he would have already established in the onset of the counseling with the counselor excuse me, with the consulate, where alright. Just stage wise, okay, sufferer, sinner, saint, because this has has to do with identity in Christ. That's where we're getting into an issue of especially with the state of evangelicalism today,

Jesse: 25:01

where

Mike: 25:01

they haven't really understood idolatry. They probably haven't really heard it much to what Jesse's saying about the cultural reality of everything and how that's really subsequently or consequently rather seeped into the church that a lot of our consolees that are coming to us have never pro probably understood a theology of idolatry.

Shauna: 25:18

Or they just go to the object. Oh, I'm going to tea or I'm going to the person, and they're not going back to the desire.

Mike: 25:24

That's what I'm saying in that the idea of understanding, do they are they because what Jesse was saying is typically they're coming in as the sufferer

Shauna: 25:32

Yeah.

Mike: 25:33

And not really realizing the reality and extent of sin that still exists, which would go to those things that you're talking about. Like, what objects are they continuing to run to, which demonstrates that they're still lacking a deep understanding of the gospel and then getting them to that point.

Shauna: 25:49

Yeah. But so, like, the example that Jesse, you used adult adultery. Right? Okay. That's the object.

Shauna: 25:54

I'm going to another person. But what is their desire? Are they seeking comfort? Are they seeking approval, affection, right, acceptance? What is it that they have forsaken God for that they're now running to this?

Shauna: 26:05

And so I think that this scripture allows really this might not be necessarily taught in some of the Sunday sermons, and and it might not be talked in a in-depth way in our community groups. And so I just think this is such a vital area that as biblical counselors, we really need to understand and get in a way that we're able to really go deep and get into the heart of it.

Mike: 26:27

That's what I'm saying, though, is in the context of what's happening here, which Jesse's obviously talked about and puts in the introduction of this particular homework assignment, if you will, is that these are God's people in the sense of, like, nationally speaking, they're God's people. But as God's people, they're not, they've forsaken him. And I think oftentimes as Christians

Shauna: 26:46

And yet he's still pursuing them.

Mike: 26:47

And it and I think that's I think that's maybe where we do a disservice under the new covenant is that somehow we become spiritually forgettable about the reality of even as Christians, we still struggle with sin, and we can functionally speaking, worship and serve creation as opposed to the created. So I think this is just a good foundational point for the believer to realize, hey. Just because you're in Christ doesn't mean that you don't have a propensity to struggle in this. Yeah. And so bringing it back.

Mike: 27:16

So

Shauna: 27:16

yeah. And we can so easily get off track too or not believe, you know, like, how Jeremiah is literally telling them verbatim what God is saying, and yet they still didn't get it. Yeah. And so just that having that fear of the Lord of realizing that, like, I never I don't wanna get that far gone and just little bitty things can take me to a really bad place. And so us really owning as believers and talking through those desires, first and foremost, will be so impactful of how are we going to living water for these specific desires, right, for where our heart is so we don't get to that point of another object outside of God.

Shauna: 27:54

Right? It's it's focusing on those two sins. And that's why I love, Jesse, that you selected this passage because I do think it is one of the most essential passages that we can know and understand as a biblical counselor, which then breaks to the next question. Jesse, could you share with us what you think is the result of unrepentant idolatry?

Jesse: 28:13

Definitely. And you as you guys were chatting there, another passage that came to my mind was multiple ones. But in Hebrews, you think about Christians even having, like you guys said, the forgetfulness, the just the sometimes our desire to run rampant, and we intentionally walk away from the Lord. Other times, I think we drift.

Mike: 28:34

Yeah.

Jesse: 28:34

It's this slow kinda and so Hebrews two, it got, in Hebrews one, just this whole supremacy of Christ, really, all over Hebrews. But in chapter two starts, therefore, we must pay the most careful attention to what we've heard, lest we drift away from it. Yeah. And so I think, yeah, this is relevant, old and new testament, as far as this propensity to just wander away from the Lord. And it's yeah.

Jesse: 29:00

I think as counselors, we wanna be super aware of that so we can help our counselors in their suffering, and then as they deal with their sin before the Lord to remember him, to look to him, to pay attention to this message. And the result of unrepentant idolatry is not a very popular topic Right. I would say, but I think it's one that maybe in Christianity culturally here, can only speak to my context really, but there there's been maybe a departure from some of this, maybe for a number of reasons. Maybe it's reacting to previous generations who talked I'm not saying they did, but something I've heard, maybe they talk too much about this. Maybe they're just people gonna come back to us if we talk about this.

Jesse: 29:47

But it's in the bible, and it's really for our good

Mike: 29:50

But it's

Jesse: 29:51

in the bible? Yeah. There's that. Yeah. And so we yeah.

Jesse: 29:57

Yeah. And it's pretty clear right here in in Colossians and Jeremiah. What we see is the result of underpinning idolatry. It's judgment and the wrath of God. For Jeremiah, you guys mentioned he's pleading again and again and and warning them of what will happen if they don't return to the Lord and repent and forsake their idols.

Jesse: 30:19

Ultimately, they end up in Babylon. They're taken captive. And then in Colossians three, the the verse after the one we already read, verse six says, on account of these, the wrath of God is coming. That's pretty serious. I don't know that there's a there there probably are some equal motivations here, but this is a pretty strong motivation for putting these things to death that Paul had just mentioned.

Jesse: 30:44

Right? Sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these, the wrath of God is coming. And so that may be that hell, obviously, and and at the end of all things when when God judges the earth, hell, you can think about it from that standpoint. I think another way biblically to think about it is, kinda think through Romans one eighteen through 32 and the wrath of God that is presently being revealed and giving people over to their idols, essentially.

Jesse: 31:19

That that's one of the ways, biblically, that we see the wrath of God being revealed, is that he gives us over to our sin. He gives us over to the consequences of it. And I even think another connection there. We've talked about the folly, the foolishness here of this exchange. And in Romans one, I think it's by the time you get to that third, god gave them over the third time down there.

Jesse: 31:45

He gives them over to a debased mind to do things which ought not to be done, and that's a really another strong imagery there that Paul uses in Romans is this mindset that's really useless. It can't do what it's intended to do. Yeah. And so that's another way we see, I think, the wrath of God, the judgment of God on unrepentant idolatry is he'll he'll give us over to it, which I don't think any of us would say we want that. And then another practical thing for the counselle all that's practical, of course, but another thing would be, I mentioned this in the book, a life of constant thirst.

Jesse: 32:22

We're just gonna be constantly desiring and then being dissatisfied, desiring and being dissatisfied. We're gonna turn to all kinds of things that we think will satisfy us. And a lot of times, our sin will get worse and worse. It'll escalate. We'll end up doing things that we never thought we would have done, because we're looking for rest satisfaction that we cannot find in the world.

Jesse: 32:49

It doesn't exist. I think it was Augustine who said, our souls are restless until they find rest in you Yep. Speaking of God. And that's so just true experientially. Yep.

Jesse: 33:01

For me personally, I I know the podcast isn't about my life, but I could give a dozen examples of how really before I came to Christ, it was just a life of unsatisfaction. It was a life of chasing things that couldn't satisfy. And I think that when you think about idolatry, when you think about whether we're talking about Jeremiah or we're talking about us, I think sometimes we tend to think we turn to those things when we're suffering only. But I think as counselors, we gotta be aware that sometimes it's in our successes that we turn to idolatry. It it could be a kind of pride that that says, you know what?

Jesse: 33:40

Let me go dig my own cistern. I don't think I need to go to the Lord anymore for water. Mhmm. Let me go and make it myself. I think there are all kinds of ways that we can find ourselves here, whether in suffering and we turn, just grasping, or in our successes.

Jesse: 33:54

Israel never really did awesome with blessing, not for long. Yeah. They would walk with the Lord for a little bit, and then they would turn to to idols. And so I think the result is under to underpin an idolatry is judgment, the wrath of God, and then it's this life of constant thirsting. And one but one of the things I like to do in counseling, of course, is I don't want to I wouldn't wanna end the session there, so to speak.

Jesse: 34:24

That's just that's just my how I I don't like to end in Colossians three verse six because Paul doesn't. Uh-huh. And the hope of verse seven, in these two, you once walked. I think that the biblical counselors, we are men and women who believe in the gospel and not just for some future salvation, but also for change in the here and now, like new hearts. Right?

Jesse: 34:53

We're new creatures. We can have new desires. We can have new ways to walk. We do have all that in Christ. Paul has already addressed that here in Colossians, but I think it I think it'd be really hopeful for the council lead to see that, hey.

Jesse: 35:07

Maybe you've been walking this way. Maybe the text, maybe Jeremiah, and maybe you and earlier what we read in Colossians. Maybe that's bringing to light some of the ways that you've been walking, but I think one of the hopeful things here in verse seven is that you don't not only do you you don't have to walk in that way. And that I can acknowledge as a counselor is that, hey. You're not that different than where I was before I was walking in the light.

Jesse: 35:35

And so we can share the fact that we're sinners not as a way to just stay there and be okay and content with that, but, hey. There's actually hope that you don't have to be who you've always been. You don't have to go to these things that you've always gone to. You don't have to keep searching for things that are gonna not satisfy you. Another verse in first Corinthians six nine through 11 where Paul says the same thing, but gives this whole list of of people who won't inherit the kingdom of God if they continue in that sin.

Jesse: 36:07

And then he said that such were some of you. And just that, I think that encouragement, that reminder, not only to not live that way because it's not it's not in accord with what we learn in Christ, but also hope for the person who's maybe wrestling with a question of, but can I really change? Can I really be different? Can can I really want God? Can I really walk with God?

Jesse: 36:35

And I think, yes. And so even in the midst of talking about, you know, wrath and judgment, I think we can give the hope of the gospel. It is the power of god for salvation for all who believe. And always wanting to remind them of that to give them hope in the midst of, like, God's given us a solution to idolatry. Let and if there's only one, repent and believe.

Jesse: 36:57

So let's take his way because it's truly the only way. Return to the fountain of living water, if you will. And so that's how I would walk through the results of underpinning idolatry while also trying to get some hope there to the council elite.

Shauna: 37:13

That's really good. Yeah. Because there's obviously areas here that can be very sensitive, and you're like, oh gosh. Is this gonna be one of those sessions where they come back and see me next week? But I think you follow through Jeremiah, and we're not asking him to read all the chapters, but, like, even just a few chapters over where there actually is a call to repentance.

Shauna: 37:30

And this is what it said. It says, return faithless Israel, declares the Lord. I will not look on you in anger for I am merciful, declares the Lord. I will not be angry forever. Only acknowledge your guilt that you rebelled against the Lord your God.

Shauna: 37:44

Calling for repentance there, and scattered your favors among foreigners under every green tree that you have not obeyed my voice, declares the Lord. Return, o faithless children, for I am your master. I will take you from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. He's he's communicating here. Like, I am here.

Shauna: 38:04

I am calling you to me. Right? I'm calling you to repentance of not obeying and saying, will protect you. I will provide for you. He will bring you into Zion.

Shauna: 38:12

And then just a few chapters later, it goes into chapter five. We see in verses 20 through 31 the reasons why they don't. Hear this, oh, foolish and senseless people who have eyes but see not, who have ears but hear not. The people were stubborn and rebellious and faithless. And I think that these are ways that if we help them see this in scripture of the narrative of what's happening in Judah, what's happening with Jeremiah, and how Jeremiah is telling them.

Shauna: 38:44

This is what the Lord is declaring, and this is where you are. This is what is going on in your hearts. And maybe just encourage your counselees to just to really think through that. Like, where are you? What are you not saying?

Shauna: 38:56

What are you not hearing? What where are you rebelling? Where are you stubborn? Where are you walking in faithlessness? Which is obviously is going back to where are you going to other sources of fulfillment?

Shauna: 39:08

Where are drinking muddy water? When the Lord is right here saying, I'm here, and I am the fountain of living water. Stop forsaking me. And so I just think, obviously, this is just a great book of the Bible to where we can bring them back to these texts where it's not, oh, I'm just Shauna telling them this or I'm defining it my but literally giving them the picture of what was happening at this time, why this scripture verse and of idolatry and the two sins that were being committed were so important and what really ends up happening with them. And so, obviously, praise the lord for Jesus Christ.

Shauna: 39:44

Right? Because he saves us all. And so, obviously, it's a great time to either share the gospel with them or remind them of the gospel. And so I think that's very important, Jesse, that you said get where is their spirit spiritual maturity? What do they know even prior to going them to a text like this?

Shauna: 40:00

Because then you can bring it back around. Michael, do you have any additional input on that?

Mike: 40:05

No. I think Jesse and your statements there were helpful, and I think that really just comes down to, again, like Jesse was saying with all the supplemental text that he provided about just helping them see the reality of our propensity to run to broken cisterns even as believers and to just continually draw them back to Christ and just the fruit and benefit of that. But yeah.

Shauna: 40:26

Yeah. So all this is obviously not something that's just gonna be able to happen in our counseling space. So, Jesse, what are some of the things that you give them for after session assignment? Do you wanna share a couple of ideas with us on how can we help stir this in their hearts as they leave us, like, in their day to day?

Jesse: 40:43

Yeah. And so one of the things as the counseling progresses, we've I've already gotten to know them. Probably know some of the, may not know all of them, but maybe know at least one or two big broken systems that they've turned to in their life historically. And so one of the things I wanna do after this session is get them to really focus and be aware of that throughout this next week. So after we have finished this session, I want them to journal about ways, like, during this present week, when you are tempted, and you know it, now you've got language to put to it and visuals to go with it, when you're tempted to forsake the Lord and go to these broken cisterns, let's write that down.

Jesse: 41:28

And then next week, we're gonna be able to talk about that. We're gonna we're gonna probably be able to look at what's going on in your in your thinking and your desires, how what got you to that moment in your day where you were tempted to forsake the Lord and to go your own way. And so to journal that throughout the week because it that's gonna still happen. It still happens to me. There are times in my life where I am tempted to just do my own thing and to go my own way.

Jesse: 41:53

And so let's bring those into the light. Let's discuss them together and then bring what we've learned outside of the counseling room. I usually tell my counselors that our time together is not a magic hour that's gonna take your life. This is about walking with God everywhere that you go, not just in this in this meeting space. And so I think that's one way to wanna help them get the word into the rest of their life.

Jesse: 42:21

And then another thing I'll do is in the session, we may only look at a few of those verses in Colossians three, but I think all of really, maybe the whole letter to Colossae, but particularly, I think, chapter three because that can give them the hope that in Christ, you can change. You with the word of God, with the spirit of God, you can do what Paul says there, put to death what is earthly within you. You can do it. Paul in is it roman date? The flesh and the spirit, and he says, you are not in the flesh if the spirit of God dwells in you.

Jesse: 42:55

So you like, you can put to death what is fleshly because the spirit of God dwells in you. And then related to that, as I study Colossians three, what are some things that you can put on them? Because he goes there, Paul does. And so biblical counseling is not just about stopping things in your life, but also replacing what we stop with things that are gonna be pleasing to God and beneficial helpful for other people so that they can glorify God as well. And I wanna help them begin thinking that way.

Jesse: 43:29

That may be something, of course, in the latter session that we cover because them abiding in Christ has to write up a word abiding itself. It can't just be at certain times. If we're gonna bear fruit, John 15, the only way to do that is to abide. And if abiding only happens in our magic hour, you're just not gonna be fruitful Mhmm. How abiding works.

Jesse: 43:54

And then as another thing that I think really drives all this home, I mentioned a Piper sermon there. And so that that sermon is titled the ultimate essence of evil, and I should get people to listen to that. In fact, even in our our equipped council training, I think it's, like, week six or something, I have all of our counselors listen to that sermon and have gotten incredible feedback every year from our counselors on just how impactful it is for them. And, yeah, one of the things won't give the whole sermon away because I think all of our listeners could benefit from it too. But one of the things that Park Piper argues there is that the I think he said the ultimate essence of evil is preferring anything to God.

Jesse: 44:37

And the way he walks through that biblically, it's just so helpful. And then having my council lead who's trying to work through these things and who we're trying to apply the gospel and change and give hope, I think his I think Piper's definition and the unpacking of the word in that sermon is just really helpful for help people to see that not just all the evil out there, but also the evil that exists in me has its roots, and we've said this already today, Shauna, has its roots in my desires, has its roots in my has its roots in my thinking. And at the base of that, I think Piper's argument is convincing, is this temptation to prefer anything else to God. And his again, just his passion and that sermon there is really helpful. And so I'll get him I'll get a counselor to to listen to that and take notes, and then we'll discuss it in our next session.

Shauna: 45:26

That's so good. You're speaking my love language when you bring John Piper into the conversation. He's my spiritual grandfather from a distance. I have yet to get my dinner invite at Thanksgiving, but I think it's gonna come at some point. I'm such a Piper fan, and the fact that anyone doesn't like to listen to his preaching blows my mind.

Shauna: 45:43

I'm like, nope. I'll be out front. He can totally spit as he's just passionately preaching god's word. I just love it so much. And thank you for just referencing that and giving us that as a tool that we can listen to just as biblical counselors and pastors growing, but that obviously is a good anytime we can have a good homework resource for them to listen and to think through it.

Shauna: 46:02

One of the important things that I just felt like I wanted to mention here is there's a lot of and even in this book and just we always think journaling, right, as something to give as biblical counselors. And I just recently had a lady go, I'm just not much of a journaler. I don't really do that. And I get it. Right?

Shauna: 46:18

There there's people who absolutely love it, and that's just a way for them to funnel their thoughts and thinking and or their feelings. And then there's some who just that just don't do that. But one of the things that as you were talking that I think, especially for this area that's really helpful, is how many times have you had someone come in your counseling room and they can't recall what's happened in the last week? Because there's so many things going on within just one day. That journaling doesn't have to be this huge paragraphs of, like, old school journal thinking, like, you're just filling these pages.

Shauna: 46:49

It could be simple, like, bullet points of things or situations that happened, or you can even make a chart of saying, here's the situation in a little just one liner of what happened and then just journaling the thoughts. Here's the object of my desire. Here's where I went for my source of fulfillment. And just make it very simple for them too because sometimes I would rather simplify the journaling process than just if someone says, I'm not much of a journal or a writer, letting them to not do it because it really is important in those points of decision throughout the day to really be intentional in logging the areas that we obviously get convicted or identify as situations that we've gotten to a point where it's, are you willing to send to get it, and are you willing to send if you don't get it? Those are two really good questions that you gave us.

Shauna: 47:39

That those two questions need to be written down, and they think through when the situations or the events happen. And then allowing that to just catapult the next session because then they don't have to sit there and be like, ah, I can't really remember what happened. They can actually just come with these bullet point type thoughts and answers and then just allowing us to go deeper. So just one of those things that now, obviously, if you have the opposite of someone who's like a mega journaler, you might have to have them give you a short summary, right, in the counseling session or that could just take your whole hour. So maybe the opposite.

Shauna: 48:09

But I just didn't want anyone that was listening to breeze over that journaling thing because I think there's just so many different ways to think through what that assignment could look like. But for idolatry, I just think it's incredibly important to really be intention really ask your counselees to be intentional throughout the day and the week for them to really hone in and think through that and be very intentional in identifying those desires. Jesse, this was was terrific. Thank you so much for joining us all the way from Georgia and recording this podcast with us.

Mike: 48:40

Yeah. Thanks, man. It's been delightful.

Shauna: 48:44

We have Yeah.

Jesse: 48:45

I'm joined as well.

Shauna: 48:46

Yes. If you if you don't currently have this book, can go to christiancounseling.com and buy that in the store. We also if you're an ABC member, just know on the back end page, if you click the link called counseling through scriptures, we have some of these actually already in PDF format that you can just print and use out in the counseling room. Jesse, thank you, and please extend our gratitude to everyone at your church and and just all that you guys are doing and not only equipping biblical counselors, but just the soul care that you're providing. We are so thankful for your partnership, and thank you again for being on Speak the Truth.