Mike: 00:07

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello.

Shauna: 00:18

Yo. Yo. Yo.

Mike: 00:19

Who is this foreign voice?

Shauna: 00:21

Oh, goodness. It hasn't been that long since I've been on. Those were some good podcasts from the conference. Thank you for doing those without Jeremy and I.

Mike: 00:28

Yeah. Shout out to Rob and David.

Shauna: 00:31

Yes. Thank you. It's always good to get a pastor's perspective and just hear different ways to start counseling ministries, but I'm excited to get back to counseling through scripture. And so we started out with counseling through Psalms, which ties into the counseling resources that ABC has done. And I'm so thankful for this resource because it's not just something that I've written myself.

Shauna: 00:53

I had the idea and knew that this would be a huge benefit to biblical counselors that are being trained because it it was something that I desired as a counselor. But I was able to partner with our ABC ministry partners and people out there who are teaching and leading in tons of different churches and counseling ministries to ask them to contribute to the book, which just gave a broader perspective to the scripture, just was allowing us to go more in-depth to it. And the cool thing is, I don't know if you guys know this, but from behind the scenes, is I didn't actually give the writers specific passages. I allowed them to select whichever passages they wanted, which actually brought some duplicates where some people would choose

Mike: 01:30

to Yeah.

Shauna: 01:30

Like the

Mike: 01:31

one we're about to go over today.

Shauna: 01:32

And so that's why I'm sharing it. And so they didn't know what the other writers were gonna write if they ended up selecting the same passage. And I thought that was actually good to put in the book. So the goal isn't, say, the counseling through the psalms to capture every single psalm. Maybe at one point, we will add the ones that are missing.

Shauna: 01:48

But just to allow the duplicate psalms to be on there so the counselors and as you get the material, you can see that there's so many different ways, obviously, to use God's word in counseling. Maybe it's a variety of topics or just a way just to help others delight in his word. And so as we now launch this series, which is counseling through bible narratives in the Old Testament, we are gonna be discussing a passage in Genesis that actually three different people, one Michael, Brad Hambrick, and now we have Andrew that is coming on the podcast today to talk about how to use a passage in Genesis in a counseling room and then after a session assignment.

Mike: 02:24

Yeah. Along those lines, obviously, to Shauna's point about the collaboration and getting pastors and counselors involved in this is just obviously helping the counselors be able to take scripture as the case study to demonstrate particular themes or topics to speak into their lives.

Andrew: 02:39

Yeah. So

Mike: 02:40

it's a it's a really cool collaboration, and glad we get to go over it today with Andrew.

Shauna: 02:44

Yeah. Andrew, thanks for coming on and joining us on Speak the Truth.

Andrew: 02:47

Yeah. Glad to be here. Good to get to hang with y'all.

Shauna: 02:50

Yeah. You wanna share a little bit with our listeners about you and just Austin Stone and all the things that you're doing in Austin, Texas?

Andrew: 02:56

Yeah. For sure. So, yeah, I'm part of Austin Stone Community Church. I got two roles with the church. I'm the executive director of the Austin Stone Counseling Center, which is a team of about 30 counselors that provides care and counseling to the city of Austin as well as Austin Stone Community Church.

Andrew: 03:12

And then for the church, I have the title of director of soul care, which is maybe my favorite title of all time, which just means I'm involved in the equipping of and caring for our people as issues arise. And so I have basically in the church setting, if anything is in crisis, broken, or hurting, I'm gonna be one of those people who's connected to it and trying to help shepherd people through the process of what god has for them.

Shauna: 03:34

That is really awesome. And what a blessing for a church to see the need for that and to have you leading out in that. And so that's a big job. Both of those roles are really huge. So I don't know.

Shauna: 03:44

Do you have any tips for us on how you do it all?

Andrew: 03:48

The the easy answer is Jesus. There there is truly no other Classic Jesus. Are gonna happen. That's But apart from that, there is no yeah. I've worked long enough in counseling as well to know the stories you hear, the difficult situations, the things that inevitably feel impossible apart from a god who's able to do what we cannot.

Mike: 04:10

Amen.

Andrew: 04:11

And there's not hope. And so I love yeah. We get front row seats to what God is doing in people's lives. Because of that, in all these situations and all the brokenness, it's I need the bread of life as much as my clients. I need to be remembering who Jesus is daily.

Andrew: 04:25

Otherwise, I'll lose hope. There's so much brokenness out there. It can just be overwhelming.

Shauna: 04:29

That's so good. And you also are a training leader for ABC. You teach the equipped to counsel curriculum. Can you just share with people how you use ETC with your church?

Andrew: 04:39

Yeah. So we ETC has been equipped council has been rolling at our church now for eight years, which is honestly hard to fathom that we've had eight classes that have gone through that. We usually have a majority Austin Stone community people in the class, but then we'll also have other churches that send people to get equipped and trained, deacons, elders, pastors, ministers within their church who just wanna be more equipped to provide god's counsel to their people. And so we've been running that for eight years. It's been really fruitful.

Andrew: 05:06

It's good for my soul. Every year, I get to teach it and go through the concept again and just remind myself of these simple truths. The perfect counselor is God. I get to be his ambassador and minister of reconciliation, and so do all of his children. They also are called to do the same.

Shauna: 05:22

That's so good. And so you do that with Austin Stone in enrichment eight years. That's so incredible how awesome that is. And then you also co teach with Jason Kovacs at Gospel Care Collective, right, like, an online certification program?

Andrew: 05:37

Yeah. For sure. Love Jason Kovac. That's a fun group that we get to work with. We do a couple of those a year.

Andrew: 05:43

And the blessing of that, it's online. We got people from all over the place, different states, different countries. Again, getting to feed them the same truth that's so good for our souls. Yeah. That's been really productive and fruitful.

Shauna: 05:56

Yeah. Thank you for doing that. Just because as Michael and I, when we first got started, it was actually eight years ago. We're about to have our first annual banquet for truth renewed. But when we first got there was, like, a little plug.

Shauna: 06:06

I thought, not really. Anyways, but when we got started eight years ago, we even though we're in the bible belt, we're like, man, what's like, how do we introduce biblical counseling to the churches? Like, how do we even communicate this? And so there's so many people in states that are just one off people. God just calls these one or two to lead out, and we've seen that story after story.

Shauna: 06:26

And so the online program that Jason started, and you thank you for partnering with him, is so needed because there's so many people that just don't have anyone around them yet. They're taking the class. They're getting certified. They're leading out on that to then hopefully go back to their church and not only start providing care, but hopefully helping to equip other people. And anyway, so that that wasn't planned to talk about, but I'm so glad.

Shauna: 06:48

Just all the different hats that you wear, which only makes it that much more exciting for us to dig into Genesis today. And I'm so thankful that you actually wrote on the topic of forgiveness. I was really hoping that someone would do this because I think we've missed out on that in the Psalms book, and this is such a needed area of a lot of people who are really hurting. And so you even titled it freedom and forgiveness. So thank you for taking this passage and doing that.

Shauna: 07:11

And so I'd love for you just to walk us through that now. Yeah.

Andrew: 07:14

Great. So this is the passage that just stuck with me over the years. It's an incredible picture of what forgiveness looks like. I think the caveat I want to put on top of this is that we can look at Joseph's story, which we'll read here in just a minute, and Joseph's response after severe mistreatment, severe mistreatment from his brothers, is the response at the end and forget that we're talking about a time span of years, if not decades. And so my caution even in writing this or this tension I felt as we were putting down on a kind of a one pager was that it would feel like a fast process.

Andrew: 07:47

Like you just move through this, do the right thing, you're done. Without a consideration of, no, the story, the fruit of what we see in Joseph's life took time. Like, we don't know the wrestling. Like, we don't get access to the wrestling that Joseph had when he was in prison after Potiphar's wife accused him. We don't know the wrestling throughout the years while he lived Egypt working for pharaoh.

Andrew: 08:07

What did it look like for him interacting with God in that time? Was he frustrated and angry? Was he bitter? And then God eventually changed his heart. We don't get that picture very clearly.

Andrew: 08:17

We just know the end fruit.

Mike: 08:19

Yeah. That's And

Andrew: 08:19

the end truth being that his heart is radically changed through the process to the point that we'll see here in a little bit. He's able to say stuff to his brothers that I balk at. Like, authentically, how did your heart get there? And these in many ways, the answer is God did something through the suffering.

Mike: 08:35

Yeah. That's really good. You bring up a good point, Andrew, about just what the narrative doesn't necessarily include. But what the narrative does point out from the very beginning and starting in in Genesis 37 is that he was 17 when those dreams happened. He wasn't he didn't actually rise to power until he was 30.

Andrew: 08:51

Yeah. From the beginning, it can be such a helpful calibration if we're gonna use this with a client, with somebody that we're walking through, is to help them see just because we see the right answer at the end doesn't mean there's not years of messy middle wrestling.

Mike: 09:06

Yeah.

Andrew: 09:06

Of working through what this actually looks like in their life. And so yes stepping into forgiveness. I start from the beginning pointing to the reality that apart from forgiveness, really things would have ended in Genesis three. Apart from God's willingness to forgive Adam and Eve, like, the story ends tragically. And so our baseline understanding where forgiveness comes from is the fact that God has modeled it first.

Andrew: 09:28

That God has given us this image from the beginning that apart from what he did and what he said would come, that he would send someone to save us from what we had done. Then there would not be a rest of the story. So my hope at the beginning then is to help all of us feel that together. Like, we're all in the same boat. We're all in the same boat of god has graciously forgiven us, and if we hold to that and can see, I am one who desperately needed god's forgiveness.

Andrew: 09:56

And he was so kind and gracious to extend it even knowing all the things that I would do wrong. That sets my heart in a different place as I'm looking to forgive someone who's done wrong to me. That helps me hold a calibration of, okay, I'm like them. I'm not really different. Does that make any sense?

Mike: 10:14

Yeah. Perfect sense. Biblical sense.

Andrew: 10:17

The best kind of sense. That's the one I'm hoping for. And stepping into the passage that I think maybe now would be a great time for us to just take a look at it. And, Shauna, would you be able to read that for us?

Shauna: 10:28

Yeah. I can. And one of the one of the things that just to follow-up with what you had just said, that's actually a direct quote from the article that you wrote in the book. It says, god's kindness, patience, and forgiveness, which are all born out of his love, that we have the rest of the story and the hope for redemption. It's so good.

Shauna: 10:46

And just thinking about me sitting in front of someone starting off biblical counseling even before reading this passage just to have that foundation that you just said is so good. So thank you for that. So I'm gonna read out of ESV, and so this is gonna be Genesis 50 verses 15 through 21. So when Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, it may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him. So they sent a message to Joseph saying, your father gave this command before he died.

Shauna: 11:19

Say to Joseph, please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin because they did evil to you. And now please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father. Joseph wept when they spoke to him. His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, behold, we are your servants. But Joseph said to them, do not fear for I am in the place of God.

Shauna: 11:42

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. To bring it about that many people should be kept alive as they are today. So do not fear. I will provide for you and your little ones. Thus, he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Andrew: 11:58

Yeah. Thanks, Shauna. Thanks for reading that. Usually, at this point, if I'm meeting with somebody, I'm not gonna jump straight into the next section. I prefer at this moment to give the individual time to just share, hey, what stuck out to you in the passage?

Andrew: 12:14

As you heard God's word, like what resonated with you, what poked you in that process? Just to see how they're seeing and hearing the passage themselves. Now this can lead to all kinds of kind of tangents that might if you're that that person loves to go through the whole system, question one, two, and three, and get through it in order, That might throw that off. So depending on the person using this, you may or may not do that. I like to do that just to get a calibration of what's this individual hearing and thinking about as this passage is read over them.

Andrew: 12:44

And then after that, moving into this next section is built to be more self reflective. There's, in my mind, two sides of forgiveness that we're looking at here. There's the freedom of forgiveness when we need to ask for it, when we lean into, okay, I have done things that I'm ashamed of or embarrassed by or that I know I've hurt other people, And I need the freedom of being able to go to them and ask forgiveness. And then that asking of forgiveness to be able to acknowledge with a sense of accuracy the type of hurt I have caused. The other side of forgiveness, which I think most people will settle into or be thinking about when they start into this section is the forgiveness I'm going to extend to others.

Andrew: 13:21

The felt calling of I need the freedom of forgiving them and letting go of anger, bitterness, and stuff like that. So this section is built more on the can we lean into other things that you're holding on to? Are there things like Joseph's brothers that you're so afraid that if you admit how bad it's been, if you're fully clear with Joseph and you allow him to have the freedom of response to his pain? That's too risky of an endeavor, you're going to kind of hedge, you're going manipulate to make sure that there's some level of disclosure, but it's not the whole. And I put in there as well, this is as old as time.

Andrew: 13:57

This is what Adam and Eve did when they had sin in their lives. Our tendency is to minimize, diminish, and blame is to make it smaller because we feel internally this sense. I cannot bear the weight of what I have done. I mean, so these questions are geared towards helping someone move into that and recognizing and being honest about what we have done if there there is stuff they're being honest about where we need forgiveness actually produces greater freedom. Minimizing it will bring no resolution.

Andrew: 14:23

I'll be patching over out over it without doing the real work that will lead to a felt sense of freedom. So these are the questions in this section that I think can be helpful for processing and trying to figure out, are there areas in my life where first I need to look at the log in my own eye before I address the speck in someone else's. So the first question here, are there things currently in your life that you're afraid to confess and ask forgiveness for because of fear of how the person may respond? Now depending the individual you're meeting with in this moment, depending on how they're coming in, this may not be the best question to start with. Meaning, if they're coming in deeply wounded, deeply betrayed, and wrestling through in a wholehearted sense, how on earth could I possibly forgive somebody for what they've done?

Andrew: 15:07

I might not start with this question because it's gonna feel out of left field. There there'll be a time for this question, but in that moment, they need more help on seeing the other person who's done harm in a new and different way. But if I got somebody who's in a different spot, they're just working through generally speaking, what does it look like to walk faithfully in forgiveness, to acknowledge my hurts, and to acknowledge the hurts done to me, to receive forgiveness, and to extend forgiveness. This is a good place to calibrate and go, okay. Lord, are there areas in my life?

Andrew: 15:38

Are there spaces in my life that I'm hiding or minimizing? Because I'm afraid if I disclose them to the individual, the response will be overwhelming. I'm afraid that if I'm honest about what I've done, then the cost will be too much. And so can be an awkward question to walk through for some, but again, if we're giving them this is where freedom comes from as being known and seen and recognizing in forgiveness, there's actually great release, there's great freedom, there's the gift of getting to receive some somebody else the grace that you have received from God, then this is a question I might start with. The second one, are there sins you've committed that you find yourself justifying or minimizing heading along the same track?

Andrew: 16:19

So we have those things that we know that we're like maybe holding on to, No, this is really bad. I refuse to tell anybody because I'm so terrified that if everybody knew they would treat me differently or reject me or condemn me. This middle question here in this section is more of a where I think a lot of us, if we're honest, will find, yeah, I'm doing that a lot. I find myself minimizing, oh, I was rude to my kids. That's just because I'm tired.

Andrew: 16:44

It'll be fine. I'll give them some ice cream. They'll be great. Yeah. Like, don't do the deep heart work in that moment to go, oh, no.

Andrew: 16:50

The what I've done is the same image of god in my kids by the way that I treated them. Lord, how do I work that out? And then what does it look like to for me to ask forgiveness for my kids in that moment? Not to move in and go, no. If I'm not minimizing this, I see clearly what the rustle of my heart is in this moment.

Mike: 17:08

Yeah. That's good.

Andrew: 17:08

That's really good. I

Shauna: 17:10

think with that, it's like what one of the sweet spots of what biblical counseling is all about is to really provide an environment and open up the conversation and make them feel comfortable with you in order to actually share these things because this could be something that they're hiding or they've been living in deceit for quite some time. And so when that comes out to be able to handle that with care and then just allowing them see this from a passage in scripture of what God was able to do, that whole but God area of what God can do with this and how we can lead them then into confession and repentance. And then hopefully then lead them back into the fruitful relationships that needs to be had. I and obviously, this is a place that we would just wanna encourage the church to get into from just a discipleship standpoint, right, of having this within their relationships in general and within small groups and stuff. And so one of the things that we even like to encourage if, obviously, there's biblical counselors and pastors listening, but don't forget your role of, like, when you are helping them work through it as you model this for them, encouraging them that this is not just an area that you have to live out and do within a counseling room, but an area that you can live out fruitfully within all of your life.

Shauna: 18:21

Do you know what I mean?

Andrew: 18:22

I love what you're hitting on there. Like, that first part, the Rapport Building is unbelievably significant because in something like this, if the questions we ask come across as, hey. I've got this figured out. You need help. Instead of, no.

Andrew: 18:34

We both need to be honest about as fellow children of god in desperate need of Jesus. I've got areas in my life that I minimize sin and in so doing, and in many ways, missing out on the freedom of forgiveness that's already been offered in Christ and that I can receive from a fellow brother and sister in Christ. In other words, we need deep rapport for them to feel safe to say, yeah, here's where I'm doing that. And for them to know, we don't frame up their identity based on those things because god doesn't frame up their identity based on their sin. He sees them as they are new creations in Christ and which moves us into what you just said on the end, the church part, unbelievably significant.

Andrew: 19:14

This is just good Christian living. Not special to just the counseling room. This is just the meat and potatoes of the Christian life. Although it is a little bit scary to step into it, there's vibrant community to be found where this is the norm. Yeah.

Andrew: 19:28

Just share honestly and openly.

Mike: 19:31

Yeah. That that is that koinonia that scripture really talks about. It's a it's not a truncated version of what a relationship looks like. It's a accountability driven from truth and love. Just being able to have that relational equity.

Mike: 19:43

Being able to have that relational equity is is so important in establishing and especially, obviously, in the formal setting of a counseling room, but making sure that we're actually identifying with the person that we're counseling to. Not necessarily to minimize a little bit even to, to your point, Andrew, but let them know that we're not exempt from what we're speaking to them is truth.

Andrew: 20:04

This leads all to the third question here, which I think moves it into the proper space. The third question is to consider what is God inviting you to do with what you have discovered now with that insight you've garnered on other areas that you're hiding sin, minimizing sin, withholding confession because of your fear? What is God inviting you to do with that? And I phrase it that way on purpose because it's not what I as your counselor am asking you to do. If that's what our client is thinking, then we're off base.

Andrew: 20:32

We want to lead them to wrestle with the Lord of what is the Lord inviting you into here? What he has for you is good. What he has for you is freedom. Want you to talk to him about what might he be asking you to do even though it feels a little scary to do with what you've now come to understand?

Shauna: 20:49

And this might actually be an area to where they might not know that in the moment, right, when you're talking to them. Some would. Some could have that conviction the Lord has worked in their heart right then. But some, we have had a lot of hardened hearts, and so it takes time, which this and we'll talk later about after session assignment, but did wanna just interject with this question where this could be something that you pause and you allow silence to be in the room just for them to go to the Lord right then. Or it's obviously something that you give them to just go to the lord throughout the week and before your next session so you can they can continue to pray about that.

Andrew: 21:23

Yeah. I think both options are great, and this is the beauty of how we're hoping to counsel, right, is that by the direction of the Holy Spirit in the moment most help. And so I think for some individuals, what will be most helpful is, hey. I'm gonna give you this question, and I just want you to spend the next week praying about it and listening. I don't want you to think, oh, I've gotta get the right answer.

Andrew: 21:44

We wanna avoid that thinking and move into, no, relate with your heavenly father. Talk to him about what would be most helpful. So the most, I think, helpful things to meditate on scripture, and I was even writing on it this morning in John 21 where Jesus restoring Peter. He'd been fishing all night. They didn't catch anything.

Andrew: 22:01

Jesus tells them, hey, throw the net on the other side and they catch all the fish and they come to the shore and recognize that it's Jesus and he sits down and has breakfast with him.

Mike: 22:10

Hey, you guys are Like in there.

Andrew: 22:13

Yeah. Right. In there, brokenness, in there, and knowing the story, they're cowardice. They had seen the resurrected Jesus and they were still hiding for fear and trying to go back to what felt controllable. And yet Jesus at no point in all of this seems to be in a rush.

Andrew: 22:28

Like he's not in a hurry to just get them where they need to be. Yeah. And in the same way, I think we can be really patient by giving a question like this and going, hey, you don't have to rush. God's not in a hurry with you. Like, he knows.

Andrew: 22:41

He's working on his good timing, and there's a pacing for this that fits with you and with what he has for you. And so let's lean into trusting that God will direct it in time as opposed to trying to grab with our own hands and make it happen now. Let's give space for it.

Mike: 22:56

Yeah. That's good because that's really what real heart changes, especially as it relates to forgiveness and understanding the full weight of God's forgiveness when he's trying to work that in the individual. Yeah. That's good.

Andrew: 23:07

Yeah. And it's in many ways what we can't do. And I think for us as the counselor to keep in mind, if you force a person into moving towards forgiveness, it's not really gonna be effective. Yeah. If you get the form of forgiveness without the heart of it, that's not going to be helpful.

Andrew: 23:25

Which for me, personally, allows me to have or to at least feel the sense of, okay, I can be patient, Lord. Because you're not asking me to do what only you can do here. Like, you're asking me to be a, again, an ambassador of Christ, minister of reconciliation here, but you have to help that sink in. So because of that, I'm gonna trust that your timing is good.

Shauna: 23:42

So good. I need the script from this podcast. I just wanna you you have a good way to articulate things, Andrew. It's like, I almost just wanna, like, record Andrew and then do that in the counseling room. Right?

Shauna: 23:55

That's for the podcast. All everybody can do that. And then we see in Joseph's response you have here is remarkable.

Andrew: 24:01

Yeah. So moving into this next section. So we moved from the brothers stepping into the brothers' shoes, identifying with them, okay, we're equally as human, equally have the same tendency to deflect and minimize. And now stepping into Joseph's response, and I'm just going to read through this next paragraph because I think it's helpful setting the tone of the next questions. It says this, Joseph's response is remarkable.

Andrew: 24:25

He has clearly been shaped through the crucible of his suffering and has left him kind, patient, and empathetic. Joseph doesn't mince words when he identifies what his brothers did as evil. Yet their intentions are not the primary lens through which Joseph sees life. If it was, the natural response would have been bitterness and vengeance. Instead, Joseph looks at his brothers and his circumstances through God's eyes.

Andrew: 24:47

Forgiveness requires two things: One, we truthfully acknowledge the evil done. Two, we recognize God is at work as we faithfully seek to respond to others as God has responded to us. And so in this section, these next few questions here, this is diving into deep waters. And so you'll want to attend to the person you're meeting with, how they're responding to this. Because, again, we're looking at Joseph's response that was brought about formed in the crucible of suffering by god's hands to bring him to a place to respond with gentleness, kindness, thoughtfulness, not vengeance.

Andrew: 25:21

Yet Joseph models beautifully. He does not call what his brothers did good. He calls evil evil. He's straightforward with them. No.

Andrew: 25:30

You you intended and accomplished a certain kind of evil against me. And yet for Joseph, he knew because who God is and what God was doing, that God was working out something beautiful and good. And so because of that, God Joseph could receive the evil done to him as actual good while still calling the evil evil. And this is one of those areas that I think for most people, it can get a little nuanced and confusing because in our brain, it's no. If I'm saying it came of it, then the evil itself is good.

Andrew: 26:04

I have to skip over that and pretend like it's actually somehow to it was a good thing that happened. That's not what Joseph does. He calls it evil, and yet God made it good.

Mike: 26:15

Yeah. That's really good. It's and I think this would also I actually use this the other day in a counseling session, as a matter of fact. But the just the paradoxical nature of, like, what you're saying where God's so sovereign and providential that he can take something that on the surface is clearly evil by the means of others and using it for good. And so this is I use this as an opportunity to demonstrate the reality of god's sovereignty in somebody's life and actually bring purpose to their suffering.

Mike: 26:44

So what evil intended to persecute and bring death, god used to persevere and preserve life. That so it just it's almost mind blowing when you think about it. Right? And so it I use that as an opportunity, obviously, to speak of it a little more street level in talking with the council lead, but just trying to help them reconcile just how involved God is in our circumstances. So Yeah.

Andrew: 27:06

I think, Mike, what you're hitting on there is so deeply important for our current culture, and it's where I find myself in this space a lot with counseling. This, what happens with Joseph and all throughout scripture in terms of suffering, is an incredible reframe that moves the child of God, moves us to the place of I can actually receive evil done to me, still call it evil, and yet know that it's going to produce good things. Like I know Romans five eight that, you know, it's going to lead to or sorry, Romans five earlier in that chapter that it's going to lead to perseverance, endurance, character, and eventually hope. I can know James one that it's gonna leave me complete and ready for every good work that the suffering I face in life.

Mike: 27:50

Yeah. Like, how can I legitimately count it joy? Yeah. James one too. Count it joy, my brothers, when you experience various trials.

Mike: 27:57

Really? Yeah. You have to have that decent perspective in order to do that, which obviously it took suffering, and God's working his heart to to realize that.

Andrew: 28:05

Which I think is so important. It took years. This is the part that I think is so lost in our current culture. It took years for him to get to this space. But what freedom is found to be able to go, no, any evil anyone ever does against me, I know it's going to produce good fruit because it's in God's hands.

Andrew: 28:24

And that means I can receive suffering instead of trying to reject and avoid it. Wow. I can receive it and take the Lord and go, okay Lord, what are you doing with this? I don't have to try and get rid of it. Which changes our heart posture towards others, which again, I think is what what Joseph responded to his brothers.

Andrew: 28:40

His heart posture changed. Yeah. Towards his brothers over time.

Mike: 28:44

Because he knows

Andrew: 28:45

the divine aggressor. Exactly. Yeah.

Mike: 28:48

That's good.

Andrew: 28:49

And so the questions in this section, when others have wronged you, you tend to minimize what they have done. Why is minimizing unhelpful? Some people we meet with are gonna need help actually articulating the wrong that has been done to them accurately. I can't tell you the number of clients though that roll through the Austin Stone Counseling Center that part of our job has been to help them actually understand, for instance, what happened to them was abuse. They've been so accustomed to minimize.

Andrew: 29:17

They've been so accustomed to just believe god uses it all for good. So, it's actually not that bad. That they're actually calling things not as evil or even calling the things good when god would say, no, that is actual evil though I used it for good.

Mike: 29:31

Yeah.

Andrew: 29:32

And so, some clients will actually need help finding the words to go, no, what was done to you is unendingly evil. Jesus had to die for it. That's the level we're talking about. So, there's no no such thing as small sin here. Every sin carries with it a weight that eternally had to be paid for by Christ and what he did.

Andrew: 29:55

And so someone will need help. Hey, let's talk about this. Where are you minimizing? Where are you brushing it off and saying, oh, it's just not a big deal. And let's actually talk about how God would talk about what was done to you.

Andrew: 30:05

And then the second part, are there areas in life where you're struggling with bitterness? What is shaping the way you view those situations? This is the other side of the coin. So, if minimization is the first side, I'll just pretend like it's okay because god's at work and therefore, everything's fine. The other side of the coin is, no, god is absent.

Andrew: 30:21

He won't bring justice. So, I have to hold on to this and bring about my own.

Mike: 30:26

Yeah.

Andrew: 30:27

The evidence of that being anger and bitterness that's what we'll call unrighteous anger and bitterness in the heart. Like, where are you holding on to this to try and get your own justice instead of believing the God of justice will bring it in time?

Mike: 30:40

Yeah. That's good. That's and that's where, obviously, the hard work in helping our counselors understand the reality of their emotions, even though it's geared horizontally in the flesh. But it's actually really directed towards god without them fully realizing that. In a way it's like, where was God?

Mike: 30:56

Even though they may not be explicitly saying that, but clearly

Andrew: 31:00

Mhmm.

Mike: 31:00

Their bitterness and resentment towards an individual situation is so just helping them walk through that. So that is the good point of the that other side.

Andrew: 31:08

Yeah. I love you bring that up because that's so difficult. I've got a number of clients where they can say it. They know the problem is they're angry with god, but still going there and talking to god about it feels wholly undoable to them. Feels too scary.

Andrew: 31:23

And yet that is the core, right? The core of the anger and bitterness is, no, Lord, I feel like you failed.

Mike: 31:28

Yeah.

Andrew: 31:28

I feel like you didn't show up. Like, you could have changed all this and you didn't. And so how can I trust you? We can have that type of Lamentations three conversation with God, then we can move to Lamentations three twenty one through 24 where there is a change in the heart of, no, God's mercies are new every morning. But Lord, I'm gonna direct all my viewing, my feeling towards you, and allow you to calibrate my heart.

Andrew: 31:50

That's hard work. That's hard work in session. Sometimes you're gonna have a really difficult time going there to admit their anger is, no. It's not really at this person. Your anger is, your heavenly father let this happen.

Andrew: 32:00

You're having a hard time making sense of that.

Mike: 32:02

Yeah. Yeah. And then I think that also is a good point to bring it back to the beginning of the podcast about just timing. And at least for a counselor's point that this is where it's difficult to where we have to be patient with them, where it's for like five or six sessions in and we seem to be, recircling for the, on the same things. It's, as counselors, we need to continue to be patient and realizing it's, this person's just really struggling and you may have to spend a couple of months on this one particular point.

Mike: 32:27

It can get pretty daunting, but just for the counselors encouragement to just realize that they just got to continue to be patient in that process.

Andrew: 32:33

Yeah. That patient word, man. The apostle Paul said it so many times. I think he was onto something. That even though we know this is the direction we need to go to be patient with each of god's children, that their timing, their pacing, and the way in which they will change, we don't get to control it.

Andrew: 32:48

We just get to again be faithful. And so the last part of that second question in this section is what is shaping the way you view those situations? As we're talking about the anger and bitterness, we're trying to tap into what's the narrative that's feeding the bitterness. And that's, Mike, where you let it there. It's like the anger towards God is usually where we're gonna end up.

Andrew: 33:06

We're usually gonna move toward those anger towards the individual, the stuff that they did, but then as we really dig deeper, it's your driving question is, Lord, why would you allow this to happen? And if you believe you kinda look at Jonah's story here. If you believe, no, God, if you don't do it my way, you're doing it wrong.

Mike: 33:22

Yeah.

Andrew: 33:23

We're gonna find that bitterness and that anger.

Mike: 33:25

Scott, I know your goodness, and I don't wanna submit to that. And that's where the struggle is with the consul, right? When they've been, when they're the victim and they've been sinned against, just the, it's almost unthinkable to like really give them that forgiveness. As Proverbs, I think it's nineteen seven, think it was just like, when you don't hold it against the individual, like, it's your kind of your glory to not hold an offense against someone. Like, you have the opportunity to not hold this against an individual and really experience in the same way that Christ forgave us.

Mike: 33:57

It was his glory on the cross that he didn't count an offense towards us, and we receive forgiveness from it. Yeah. That's a hard space to really grapple with in the with the council.

Andrew: 34:07

Yeah. What you're hitting on there really leads us into the final section, which is that calibration we see with Joseph, the way he views his brothers changes because he knows who God is and what God has done. And then we move into this last section inviting the same thing. And so this is what's written in the document here. It says, In forgiveness, we refuse to define people solely by the wrongs they have done.

Andrew: 34:31

No doubt this is us treating others as we ourselves long to be treated. Such forgiveness frees us up to love those who have hurt us and enables us to see them as more than the pain that they have caused. This is beautifully displayed in Genesis fifty twenty one as Joseph not only forgives his brothers but also promises to care for them and their children. And so the next question, do you find yourself defining people in your life based on the hurt they have caused you? Is to move into or to add another scripture in here, the second Corinthians five sixteen through 17, reality.

Andrew: 35:02

And then second Corinthians five sixteen where the apostle Paul is saying, regard no one according to the flesh any longer, although we used to regard Christ in this way. We regard him thus no longer. And then verse 17, which most believers know is the new creation. For those who are in Christ are a new creation, behold old is past. That verse 16 is where we're trying to spend time here and go, hey, are you defining people based on the flesh still?

Andrew: 35:25

Are you shaping them by their worst moments? Are you shaping their whole character and their identity based on the wrong they have done to you? Because scripture's gonna invite you to a different way of looking at them, and that different way of looking at them will free you up towards forgiveness and also a hope for them. That even if they feel like they've done nothing wrong, you recognize according to scripture, they've been deceived. And in their deception, they have done harm to you thinking it would get them good, but in the end, it just gets them more pain, difficulty, and hurt.

Andrew: 35:58

In the same way Joseph looks at his brothers and goes, guys, if you could see it the way I do, if you knew what you were doing at the time, you wouldn't have done it. If you could see what God saw and knew how long it was, you wouldn't have done it. And Joseph gets that now. He's offering that to him. And now he's saying, I'm not going to treat you according to that.

Andrew: 36:15

I'm going to treat you differently according to how God sees you and how God sees the situation. And so though you intended it for evil, guess what? I'm not going to give you evil back. Instead, I'm going to forgive you. Not only am I going to forgive you, now I'm going to take care of you and your kids.

Andrew: 36:31

And that's the part that's always struck my heart. It would've been enough. I feel like if Joseph was just like, hey, forgive you. Don't worry about it. We'll just go on about our lives.

Shauna: 36:37

Yeah, here's your food.

Andrew: 36:38

Joseph moves. Boy.

Shauna: 36:40

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew: 36:41

Joseph moves towards them and says, no, I'm actually gonna protect and care for you. Yeah. His forgiveness was evil against me.

Mike: 36:49

Yeah. I was gonna say that's good. It's like his forgiveness wasn't transactional. It was relational. It was like he gave him the food, but then he actually invited him to Goshen.

Mike: 36:57

He wasn't like, be well and fed and bless you. He's no. Like, he he provided forgiveness because he wants relationship with them.

Shauna: 37:04

He comforted them. It's so Yeah. And spoke kindly to them.

Mike: 37:07

Yeah. So good. Which in the beginning, his brothers couldn't speak a kind word to Joseph because their hearts were against him. Mhmm. And now he I like how the narrative brings that back around.

Mike: 37:16

It's good.

Andrew: 37:16

Yeah. It's remarkable. And it's a it's an incredible story. So Joseph's response again, wanna keep calibrating around this took years. And so we want to give a lot of space and patience for our clients to get to the spot of what does it look like to see the person who's harmed me with those kind of eyes, with grace, with kindness, with gentleness, to see them more as image bearers of God, new creation than to regard them in the flesh.

Andrew: 37:43

We want to be patient with that and how we address it. Even the last question here is what step could you take to show love to those who have hurt you? Attend to where the person is. This might not be the session or the time to ask that question. That question might be better asked later.

Andrew: 37:57

Like, if they're still in the process of trying to work through how can I possibly forgive what's been done to me? And it just hasn't clicked in yet. Now is not the time to be asking, how do you love that other person? Or to even move into god's love love your enemy. So, you should love them no matter.

Andrew: 38:13

It's not going to be helpful in that moment. They need space to grieve. Yeah. They need space to work through the actual pain that this happened. And then eventually, our hope is this question becomes one that reframes the way they look at those people, that reframes the way they look at those that have hurt them.

Shauna: 38:28

Yeah. Because I I think it's important for them not just to think of practical things in their own understanding, but really go to the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead them on what is that what are those ways that you can actually show love to them? But then also just being very careful because you had mentioned, like, an example of abuse of having them articulate it, of being able to work with your counselor and having patience in the process of really knowing how to handle and walk through that be a whole another podcast and lesson on that one. But just trying to be careful with that.

Andrew: 38:56

For sure.

Shauna: 38:57

Yeah. I think this is so good, and I'm so thankful that we took time to walk through the scripture. Andrew, thank you so much for your time. In the new book, I've actually given a whole page for notes. And so I'm gonna go back and listen to this because I couldn't take notes quick enough.

Shauna: 39:11

And just encourage those who might be listening to this just in the car or whatever to this is probably one of gonna be one of my favorite podcasts because I just think there's so many things that you said that not only went with this passage but gave us that much more of things to really consider and think through as we're working with those, but maybe even things that we need to sit down and apply to our own lives. And so I would just encourage all the counselors and pastors to go back and listen to this again with the notes out and really write things down to help you do well in the counseling process. But a part of this was to also think through what would we give our counsel leads as a after a session assignment. So after we're working with them and technically, this could be a couple of sessions. It doesn't have to you're not gonna really probably be able to address all of this in one session.

Shauna: 39:59

So even if it is a couple of sessions that you're walking through them with each of these sections, but their time apart from us, their time with the Lord is so vital and important to really working through these things. And so what are some things that you suggest for us as counselors and pastors to give them to take home?

Andrew: 40:17

Yeah. The the in the document itself, the after session stuff is where I settle in. So, the number one, forgiveness is hard and costly. This, in terms of an after assignment, I want to give that to him and say, I want you to think and meditate on this. The greatest picture of forgiveness is Christ at the cross And that is there's nothing easy about that.

Andrew: 40:38

And so as you are stepping into what does it look like for me to image Christ and offer forgiveness. I need to honor that it's hard, that it's difficult, that it does cost me something. In one sense, I'm saying to the person I forgive, I'm no longer holding you in debt to me for what you have done, which means I'm incurring the cost. I'm taking the evil you have done against me, and I'm refusing to return evil for it, and so multiply evil. Instead, I'm gonna take the evil you've done against me, extend forgiveness to you, which means that debt was, in essence, my mom being canceled.

Andrew: 41:14

Now that doesn't mean, and this would be a whole another conversation for another time, that then relational reconciliation happens. Forgiveness and reconciliation are two different parts of this puzzle. Now reconciliation is a longer road and requires reciprocation that both people be on board with what reconciliation can look like. There are going to be times where we offer forgiveness and the response is the person rejects it. And so that'd be a whole another time for a whole another time.

Andrew: 41:38

But this first part is let's get calibrated on how hard this is and be honest with the Lord about it. If your heart doesn't want to forgive that individual, talk to God about it. Ask him to help you understand what's going on there. That and again, do it without shame. Like, just acknowledge your heart before the Lord.

Andrew: 41:55

He already knows and ask him to help change your heart to align with his. The second part is bringing to mind situations. Like, spend time. Take twenty, thirty minutes and just talk to the lord and ask him to bring to mind situations in which forgiveness is needed and where you maybe need to extend forgiveness or even, you know, receive forgiveness and let the lord direct you in that process what the next step might look like. In most cases, I'll offer this as just a basic practical.

Andrew: 42:21

The initial next step in my mind is always a, just start praying for the other person. But that's it. Like, you for this next week, take a few minutes every day, Bring that person before the Lord and ask that the Lord would move in their heart and in yours. And what will let the next steps come as they may and as the Lord directs. But let's just start with a a simple baseline there.

Andrew: 42:41

And then number three is the man for all time for the rest of life. Take time to meditate on God's forgiveness for you. Like that we would never, as God's children, lose sight of the depth and beauty of what Christ has done. Because when we get that, then we understand what forgiveness is. We understand what it means to live like Christ, be ministers of reconciliation, be his ambassadors, and extend forgiveness as an echo of the greater forgiveness that we received in him.

Andrew: 43:10

And so to spend time dwelling on what God has forgiven you for, which might sound weird. If And we're not careful, we'll lead to shame. If you start working through your story and think about all the ways that you failed and all the things that you've done wrong without coupling it to the grace of God that he loves you, adores you, enjoys you, knows all of it, and takes pleasure in shaping you through the brokenness, then the natural product will be shame. But if instead we take our story and like Paul go, hey. I'm the worst of all sinners.

Andrew: 43:38

I'm chief. I got you all top. And yet God's grace was sufficient for me, which leads to depth of joy and peace and an understanding then of how to love and forgive others because we understand how God has loved and forgiven us. And so to meditate that on that daily and to know that's the heart of God towards us.

Mike: 43:59

Yeah. That's awesome. And, again, thank you for your time and just breaking down that scripture. And I do think that's a good point to remember is the faith that we've been given, as Ephesians two seven and eight talk about, what's embedded in that faith is forgiveness. That is a that is a foundational pillar of what it means to have faith in Christ, and that saving faith and forgiveness is a deep integral part of that.

Mike: 44:20

So that's good.

Shauna: 44:22

We hope that you guys have enjoyed this podcast going over Genesis 50 verses 15 through 21 and obviously so much more that Andrew gave us and helping others find for freedom and forgiveness. We hope this has been a blessing to you, yourself individually as the counselor and pastor, but then obviously to help you grow as you care for others. Michael, you'll put in the show notes the website where they can purchase the book, Austin Stone website, and everything

Mike: 44:48

to get connected to Andrew. Absolutely.

Andrew: 44:50

Andrew, you

Shauna: 44:51

mentioned earlier too that you have a podcast coming out on emotions. Could you just tell them about that really quick, and we'll put the link on the show notes for that as well?

Andrew: 44:58

Yeah. So we've got a podcast coming out in the next few weeks. Our church is actually gonna be using it for small groups content, and it's on emotions, titled Reframing Emotions where me and a few of my other counselors are going to walk through a particular oath, a particular emotion in each episode and talk about it from a biblical perspective, like how do we handle anxiety or depression or jealousy? What do we do with joy from a spiritual perspective? And so that'll be releasing in a couple weeks here.

Andrew: 45:27

I think it's the week of June 14. Each week, it'll be popping out on the website. There's groups guides and content to direct discussion along those lines. We're really excited about it. We think it's one of those topics that as a culture, and particularly within the church culture, we just need help understanding what do we do with all the things we feel.

Andrew: 45:43

Like, how do we know that what we feel like, how do we interact within that in a way that is honoring to the Lord, that gives him glory, and that helps us grow in Christ likeness? Because Jesus was an emotional dude. Like, he had all the feelings that we have. So what do we do with that? And so we're excited for that to come out That's in the near future here.

Shauna: 46:01

That will be very helpful.

Mike: 46:03

Indeed. Alright. Well, again, thank you, man. We'll, we'll see you guys next time.