Mike: 00:07

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.

Mike: 00:18

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Shauna: 00:19

Yo. Yo. Yo.

Mike: 00:20

You know, the last couple episodes that we were recording still at Hope Bible Church in Ontario Yay. Oakville or Oakville, Ontario, I should say. Your yo yo yo has been taken by Emily.

Shauna: 00:31

Excuse me?

Mike: 00:31

Yeah. She did that a couple of times.

Shauna: 00:33

Like that.

Mike: 00:35

So I need

Shauna: 00:35

to have a talk with her.

Mike: 00:36

It happened in the podcast, so it stays.

Shauna: 00:38

K. Whatever.

Mike: 00:39

Anyway, we are still at the conference, and we're excited about our guest with us. He's actually on staff here at Hope Bible Church. We have Nathan Penny, pastor of Soul Care Ministries here at Hope Bible Church, and we wanted to bring him on just as we've been continuing to talk about just the biblical counseling movement in Canada, not just in Ontario province, but I think after some of the conversation last night, the only province I think is Manitoba that doesn't have some sort of presence for biblical counseling. So anyway

Shauna: 01:08

out there calling those who are listening from there.

Mike: 01:10

Yeah. Did I get that right? Manitoba, is it?

Nathan: 01:12

Manitoba. Got it right.

Mike: 01:13

Good job. And I guess that's the only other one left in the plains that isn't hasn't had biblical counseling at this point.

Nathan: 01:19

It's really hard to say. Okay. It's really hard. And that's what

Mike: 01:22

At least oh, that you're aware of.

Nathan: 01:23

That I'm aware of. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe for so you got a trademark?

Shauna: 01:27

Oh, for greeting? Yeah. It's yo yo yo.

Mike: 01:29

I say hello.

Shauna: 01:30

What's your trademark? What do you wanna say?

Nathan: 01:32

No. Don't have a trademark. I just wanna be yeah.

Mike: 01:34

So you got

Nathan: 01:34

a trademark, and then that's been stolen for

Shauna: 01:36

a few years. Guess so. Emily has stepped into the podcast while we were here

Nathan: 01:39

because I Yeah.

Shauna: 01:40

Teaching and doing the booth. And that's yeah. So unkind of her. Tell her to get her own.

Mike: 01:45

Yeah. With G Man and then also Betty Anne Van Riese, we she was Emily was with us, and she said, I think I'm gonna say it. Nice. Nice. Y'all know her tongue.

Nathan: 01:54

She's so cute.

Mike: 01:55

Yeah. And then you're right. We have Nathan, and we just wanted to have him on because he's been as, again, the previous podcast where we've been talking about this specifically with Betty Ann and just the pioneering that's happening here. And Hope Bible Church has been at the forefront of that pioneering as a hub and centralized Yeah.

Shauna: 02:16

Yeah. So you wanna kinda give me some history?

Nathan: 02:17

Sure. Yeah. I'd love to. Yeah. So that's certainly nothing we we planned by God's grace.

Nathan: 02:22

That's just how things happen providentially. But, when we're talking about biblical counseling in Canada, it's hard to know exactly what's going on. So we gathered together as leaders yesterday and talked about ABC and how ABC has been used tremendously in Canada. And so that was super encouraging for me because I've never been in the same room as all of the training leaders.

Shauna: 02:43

Yeah, that was fun.

Nathan: 02:44

That was super encouraging.

Mike: 02:45

We just share a first. This is my first year and you had a first in your in your home trip. That's pretty awesome.

Shauna: 02:50

But it was so encouraging just to hear about just the like how it started back in what 2000 or something and progressed, right?

Nathan: 02:57

Yeah. Yeah. So even just hearing everybody's stories and seeing faces, that's another data point for me in answering the question about what's happening in Canada for people counseling. The answer is we don't really Yeah. We don't really know.

Mike: 03:11

We're a part of it. We but ultimately, what's happening, we don't know. We just know God's doing something.

Nathan: 03:15

Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why we wanted to have this conference is we're trying to gather together the people in Canada that are are part of this movement. And for the most part, a lot of folks feel very isolated, they're siloed, they're they're counseling, but they have either no connection whatsoever with other people who are doing counseling, or their church doesn't support what they're doing Mhmm. So they feel alone. So the conference is an opportunity for people to to connect, gather together and say, wow, like, we're you're doing the same thing I'm doing.

Nathan: 03:44

Like, how cool is that? But for the most part, we still really don't know. In Canada, there are pockets of biblical counseling happening. There's momentum happening. There is a hunger, and people want training, and churches are starting to get a little bit more open.

Nathan: 04:01

I'd say a lot of folks in Canada just don't have a box for biblical counseling. We this is a very secular culture. And so even conversations in the church when you're talking about counseling, it's like, yeah. I know I know what counseling is. Like, we're talking with therapy.

Nathan: 04:13

It's not exactly, you know, like, what if we're seeking to open up the Bible and have conversations God's word has to say? That's a little bit of a novel thing. Or maybe some folks have had some bad experiences in the past. Biblical counseling just means that I'm gonna get whacked upside the head with the Bible, and so I'm not really interested in that, and so we need to go to the professionals.

Shauna: 04:31

That is one of the things in just the conversations that I've had with people. I'm thinking here about Hope Bible, you'll have an incredible church building, and I'm thinking, oh, people are just, like, local, like, around, and they're just driving in. But most of the people are driving an hour, two hours, three hours just to get here because of how spread out you guys really are. Even some people in Canada, like flying into one location and then driving in. So it's here I'm thinking in our, like, our call to council conference, like in DFW, it's like a Metroplex thing here.

Mike: 04:57

Right.

Shauna: 04:57

Where so when people are coming here, though, they're committed. And you're right, they are in these levels of feeling alone. And so your conference has been, it seems like a core part of the connection aspect and like getting to know like minded people, right, on the journey.

Nathan: 05:13

And I think that's one of the reasons why our attendance continues to grow. People are looking to get connected. They're looking to be encouraged. They're looking for training. They're looking to put faces to names.

Nathan: 05:26

And we're being blessed. Like we're getting together. We're under the teaching of God's word. So and yeah, and God is just really blessing that. And so is it for everyone.

Shauna: 05:34

Yeah. One of the things too I also appreciate because I think we've had a few podcasts here that we've talked about the Vocal Counseling Coalition in Canada, But on your website, so any of those that are listening, one of the things I think so generous about you guys is y'all record all of the workshops here and all the plenary sessions, and you've made them available on your website. So even before coming here this year, I was able to, like, look at previous years and glean from the teachers and stuff. I think that's such a great thing for, obviously, the Canadians to be able to watch those back from previous years, and then maybe even you're making this year available to them. But for our friends in The States that we can access that too and glean from y'all's knowledge.

Shauna: 06:11

So thank y'all for doing that.

Nathan: 06:12

Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the objectives and goal of the Canadian Bill Counseling Coalition is we're trying to get resources. We're trying to equip folks. And, yeah, and so this is one means by which we can try to do that.

Shauna: 06:25

Yeah. So when I was talking to you and some of the people that you have on staff that's around you and supporting you and just the counseling endeavor that you're doing here at Hope Bible, you're obviously one of the larger churches, right, that's near. Can you just tell our listeners a little bit about what is, like, the equipping that you're doing here in the church? What is counseling process? Anything that we can glean from you and what you're doing?

Nathan: 06:44

Sure. So, again, Canada is a very different context. And the size of our church so on a weekend, we'd have around 4,000 people come. That is very unusual in Canada. There's a handful of churches where that's happening.

Nathan: 06:58

And but we didn't start that way. So we started with one service, about 200 people, and then quickly started to grow. And so hiring on some more counselors and thinking like that must be the solution. And the church has a 2,000 people, and it's a man. So what does God's word have to say about counseling and really focusing in on Ephesians four and equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry?

Nathan: 07:18

And that's really what led us to ABC. So it it was out of necessity Mhmm. That we needed to train up people to counsel God's word. It felt for us, you're just whipping down the rapids completely out of control, and you're kinda holding hands with a bunch of people, you're trying to put a raft together to try to get some stability.

Mike: 07:37

What do they say? All forward?

Nathan: 07:38

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. We there's there is no infrastructure. We have no idea what we're doing.

Nathan: 07:44

And so, Lord, help. And so really committing a season to prayer coming across the ABC curriculum. And we started our first class, 12 people. And so we are trying to run a cohort every three year where it's between twelve and twenty or so people to get them through level one. And then we would have our own process after that.

Nathan: 08:06

We're a second year, we're heavy on observation, trying to get folks into the counseling room, into classes, into anything related to soul care to observe everything that's taking place, intake meetings, everything. And then year three would be about supervision, where the tables flip and the individual has an opportunity to be part of all of those things with someone else in the room who can give them some feedback as We've been doing that, I guess, since 2017. And so we've, again, I think we've had five cohorts, something like that, and it's been very fruitful.

Shauna: 08:35

Yeah. That's awesome.

Mike: 08:36

Wow. I'm just sitting here thinking through just as I'm hearing your process or process. Process. Yeah. Go through that.

Mike: 08:43

I just there are some just to your point of just some of the cultural contextual differences, but even hearing and seeing that there are still similarities in what we experienced back in The States, it's just the need for it. And just even looking at what you have here as far as your church, you alluded to the size and how it's an anomaly. Yeah. But how many pastors you guys have on staff to help equip the saints for the work of ministry? Like, that's a very difficult task when you have that conviction and the fact that you guys are pressing into that and making it a priority.

Mike: 09:16

Because I would say much of the evangelical stream doesn't make that a priority, unfortunately. To see partners regardless of where they are in the world or country, different country, that they're actually a part of that, they're pressing into that and saying part of the evangelical movement, but we're pressing in. The like, the personal ministry of the word is important.

Nathan: 09:36

Yeah. For us, it was just it was something we had to do. Like, we we literally reached a point where we had a six month wait list.

Shauna: 09:44

Mhmm.

Nathan: 09:44

And we hadn't had we don't have any of our processes worked out yet. So we haven't even had conversations about, okay, so who do we counsel anyway? Do we counsel anyone who drives by? Do we counsel people that attend our church? Do we just counsel our members?

Nathan: 09:58

Like we haven't had any of those conversations. So we were counseling everyone. Like people who weren't attending our church, just drive in, say, hey, want some counseling. It's like, great. Get in the line.

Nathan: 10:06

We had people that weren't attending our church that were at the front of the line and members at the back of the line. And we have no idea what we're doing. And it's this is not working, Lord help.

Mike: 10:14

Yeah. So

Nathan: 10:16

it was really out of necessity. Like we, yeah, we needed to hit stop. So we're still counseling people, but it's like we need

Mike: 10:24

Reevaluating that structure and process.

Nathan: 10:26

Everything. Yeah. Reevaluating everything and understand. Okay, so if we if we are devoting resources to equipping, that means we're going to be able to counsel even less people. That means the line is getting even longer.

Nathan: 10:38

What are we going to do is we have to train. We have to train. That's the long term.

Mike: 10:42

We've to multiply that care. We can't do all of it.

Nathan: 10:44

Yeah, absolutely. So what we did in the meantime is we started some classes that we felt really addressed a lot of different issues. So if you're suffering, if you're caught up in some kind of sin pattern, if you are struggling with different issues, here's a class that you can join in the As you're waiting in the line, here's some kind of ministry that can act as a bit of a pressure valve for the church while we are seeking to raise up counselors. And then again, really from that also, seeking to develop a culture in the church of soul care. So it was a complete reevaluation of everything and really just born out of sheer panic.

Mike: 11:25

Yeah, it just but it brings back to the table, which is why I think it's really difficult for churches sometimes because they'll try, they see the need, so it's a reactive response to try to help meet the need. And then they do that for a little bit. And it's unbelievably chaotic. They're like, this isn't working. And then they don't pick it back up.

Mike: 11:44

Whereas what you guys did is getting to the point of like, we need to reevaluate and we need to systematically approach this.

Nathan: 11:49

Yeah. And

Mike: 11:50

that's, and I think that's even where just tying it back into ABC a little bit is you alluded to Ephesians four and equip in the saints for the work in ministry. And that that is the most arguably the most difficult part of the church because it requires so much. You guys have, again, a clear emphasis on the personal ministry of the word. Much of I'll just refer to the states and specifically in Texas. It's very much an emphasis on the public ministry of the word.

Mike: 12:15

And it's about Sunday. And there's so much care that's being left on the table because it's hard work. So there's just so much that you guys are pouring into this, and discipleship is hard and, like, on every level you guys are pressing in where others are not.

Nathan: 12:30

God's been gracious.

Shauna: 12:30

Trying to.

Nathan: 12:31

Right? Yeah. Trying to.

Mike: 12:32

What I'm saying is you're seeing the need, you're modeling the need, and then you're multiplying it. Yeah. You are. So you're making, you're modeling, and you're multiplying.

Nathan: 12:41

Yeah. Yeah. And again, one one of our taglines, and we picked this right up from our elders

Mike: 12:45

Yeah.

Nathan: 12:46

Is we don't know what we're doing. Lord, our eyes are on you from Jehoshaphat's prayer, and we mean that. We mean that. We don't know what we're doing. And the Lord has led us.

Nathan: 12:55

And so initially, it was about meeting a need. And and again, God has been gracious in leading us and training up people and commissioning them as non vocational counselors in our church and having a growing number. And that's then afforded us the opportunity to start to ask some other questions. Like, does preventative care look like? How do we become a church where we're not just meeting people at the bottom of the cliff in the train wreck and in the car crash, but instead we're up at the top and around the guardrails and trying to minister to people.

Nathan: 13:27

And so again, that has to do with creating more of a culture of care in the church and seeking to have all ministries ministering privately in the word of God.

Shauna: 13:36

So Nathan, over the years, we've worked together, but really, there's just been so many people that I've met that you have invested in some form or fashion. So there's always like a Nathan sometimes in conversations, like you're highly respected. It seems like you've just been beneficial and equipped people, like, randomly, like, throughout. And so you've had an impact in the counseling world. But, like, more one of the things I wanna say, because obviously I'm a woman here on the podcast, and one of the things I admire is when I see men in ministry and pastors specifically who learn how to work well with women in ministry.

Shauna: 14:07

And so I feel like I see from you and hearing from your team that there's some how you've been able to really work well alongside women, empower them in ministry, help them and hey, don't just teach in a women's ministry concept. We want you to equip and teach over here too and hey, I see this particular gift in you and I want to invest in that a little bit more. And that's in different ways and different people. But just because there could be pastors and ministry leaders listening, could you just offer some type of encouragement? What have you found helpful over the years or maybe even pitfalls you fell in?

Shauna: 14:37

Yeah. Just empowering your team to help you in this endeavor.

Nathan: 14:40

Yeah. Yeah. To try to stay away from platitudes, but at the same time, it is just true. Right? That saying things like we're better together is just very true.

Nathan: 14:48

When you have a team of mature believers who love the Lord, who love people, who are passionate about seeing people growing and changing, who are passionate about coming alongside people who are suffering, who who really long to see God glorified in people's lives, and you're able to work together, there's something so powerful that happens there. So I don't know where we would be without the women on our team. I honestly, I'm very fortunate in the sense that all of the women on our team that are staff members I meet with every week. So we meet as a team biweekly, but I'm able to meet with all of our staff once a week and to check-in. And I I firmly believe that it's a way better approach in a counseling setting have women counseling women.

Nathan: 15:37

I just believe that doesn't mean that there's never a place for men counseling women, but I've just seen it, and I believe it's biblical. And to have the women that we have humble, lifelong students of God's word, passioned of what they're doing, called to this ministry to be able to labor alongside, especially in marriage situation where we have one of our pastors counseling a husband or one of our nonvocational counselors counseling a husband, and we have one of our nonvocational women, counselors counseling the wife, man. It's just so good. There's just a there's a a way that we are working together that is spirit led and just profoundly powerful. One of the reasons and one of the ways that they that came about, and I say this in all sincerity, is through ABC training.

Nathan: 16:23

Because one of the commitments that we wanted to make to the ministry is we wanna do our training together. We wanna learn how to work together. Going through the curriculum together, I I think back to the first time we did it, there was very few meetings we had where there weren't tears. Hearts are being opened up. The Lord is working.

Nathan: 16:43

There's repentance taking place. We're getting to know each other as we're getting trained so that when we are moving into counseling situations, man, we have that relationship already. I know you. You know me. There's a trust level that's built there, and we working together toward the same goal.

Nathan: 17:00

That was one of the outcomes of working together through ABC curriculum. That was of the blessings of it.

Shauna: 17:05

I do like that about Equip to Counsel and hearing some of those stories where even we we've had where people are going through it where they believe that they're saved, and there's actually salvation stories like going through Equip to Counsel for enrichment or certification. And the way that John has written it is so good. You could have a a PhD and take this curriculum and just learn practical theology, right? Or you could just be a lay lay counselor and or person or caregiver and come in and and take it as beneficial. But that's really awesome because then there's also that core training.

Shauna: 17:33

So all of your team at different years as they've come and gotten trained, they have that core language of the equipped to counsel, and then you expand the training from there. And I just think that what you're pointing out that I hope our listeners are picking up is the fact that you need a team around you. Like, you're you don't go in as a care pastor all on your own, but you need women. You need men. You need just additional caregivers to help and then meeting with them regularly and supporting them.

Shauna: 17:56

And not only empowering them to equip others, but how are we also intentionally equipping them?

Nathan: 18:00

Yeah.

Shauna: 18:01

At one of the workshop topics is you worked you co taught with Betty Ann Van Reese, which, Michael, you interviewed at another podcast. And y'all spoke specifically about how to start a counseling process. Your perspective is different from hers or from a little bit in the way that god's called y'all to implement that. So since we you probably talked to Betty Ann about that, right, with Emily. And so could you just give us your perspective of how to start a counseling process or encouraging them of how to get started in the local church?

Nathan: 18:26

Yeah. This was kind of like a forty five minute breakout, so much there. Think

Shauna: 18:31

it was Yeah, just any little

Nathan: 18:32

Yeah. I think it was helpful for Betty Ann and I just coming from different contexts, right? But coming from a church context, some of the things for me would be, so if we're thinking about meeting with someone for the first time, is this a counseling session? Are we jumping right into counseling? Is this an intake meeting?

Nathan: 18:51

Criteria in terms of who do I counsel? Do I just counsel men? Do I just counsel women? Do I just counsel members of our church? Do I counsel anyone who attends?

Nathan: 19:00

Counsel anybody? What are my consent forms look like? How much information do I want before legal issues? Am I counseling on behalf of the church that I'm attending? Am I not?

Nathan: 19:12

Is this more of a living room setting where I'm on my own? What are expectations that I'm setting out beforehand? Am I front loading what this is? I'm looking to meet with you for a couple of months. Am I signing up to meet with this person for the next ten years?

Nathan: 19:28

I think there's a lot of questions like that That's great. That would look different, again, for Betty Ann setting and my set. Is this a a formalized kind of counseling plan that we're going through? Is this informal spiritual friendship? What does this look like?

Nathan: 19:40

So those would be some of the things.

Shauna: 19:41

Yeah. So that's something that you if they go to your website, they get the workshop audio, that's something they can listen to and glean from a little bit more. Now you're the chairman of the Biblical Counseling Coalition board. So could you just maybe share with our listeners what's the coalition in Canada talking about? What y'all kind of hope in the next few years of where you'd like to see the how for Canada to grow in biblical counseling?

Nathan: 20:03

Yeah. So last year we focused on really thinking through what is our vision?

Shauna: 20:09

Mhmm.

Nathan: 20:09

What are we ultimately gonna be about? What is this why is the Canadian Billboard Counseling Coalition exist? And it really rallied around a vision of seeing in in all of Canada access to local care and counseling. That everyone in Canada would have access to that. So that's what we're rallying around.

Nathan: 20:29

So everything we're seeking to do is how can we move the ball further down the field toward that vision. Mhmm. So that's exciting. Right? Because in in a lot of context, we can we can all love the Lord.

Nathan: 20:42

We can all be working together. But if we don't have a clear vision of where we're going, like, why do we exist? What are we doing? Then we can sometimes be spinning our wheels. So I'm really excited about that.

Nathan: 20:52

One of the things that came out of our meeting even this week was we're all sitting around the table, and we really love each other. Like, we're looking around the room as, man, it's so good to be together. We only get to do this once a year in person. So good. But the realization that we don't really know what each other's doing.

Nathan: 21:11

So we spend time catching up, like, are you doing personally? How are things going in your ministry? Because I look around the table at our board is I don't have any idea what resources you've created. I don't I have no idea, like, how you counsel. I don't know what you specialize in.

Nathan: 21:27

And I know every single person around that table has developed a ton of content. And so I think this year, we're gonna be focusing on some administrative things, but we're also gonna be focusing on trying to understand where each other's at.

Shauna: 21:41

Cool.

Nathan: 21:42

Yeah. And try to leverage some of those things because there's a lot of great stuff happening in that room. So I don't know that we need to reinvent the wheel, but I think we need to go deeper in our own relationships and try to figure out what folks are doing and be able to create content for Canada.

Shauna: 21:58

That's awesome. Yeah. And I bet exciting to our listeners. I think just from my perspective of knowing a lot of you personally and maybe not to the depth of what you're talking about, but just getting the behind the scenes and having some of the conversations, one of the things that I admired and I thought was really awesome is that intentionality in y'all's relationships. You're not just a board that's meeting saying, okay, we've got these to dos and we're gonna meet and we're gonna set vision and have this all these things that we set to accomplish this year, but y'all were taking time to really get to know each other.

Shauna: 22:26

And someone said y'all have tears together and encourage each other. And so you're practically applying what you set out to help others do. And sometimes we don't like seeing behind the scene, but in this case, it's so good to see that y'all are actually modeling in house as y'all are leading out in it. So I just appreciate that about you guys. So thank you.

Nathan: 22:45

We sincerely, genuinely feel so blessed to be part of this board and what we see the Lord doing. We are like minded and united, but without the requirement of there has to be uniformity. Yeah. We think differently about things and that's great. We would see that as a strength, something that is difficult or harmful.

Nathan: 23:07

So the diversity on the board is wonderful. And yeah, like the Lord has just knit our hearts together and and we're passionate about what we're doing. Just to to go back just to speaking about the women on our team. Is that okay if I Yeah. One of the things that I'm just constantly blessed by again, in the ministry that I'm part of in our church, I feel like the most blessed person ever.

Nathan: 23:29

Seriously, I get to do a lot of different things, and I'm so thankful to the Lord for that. But I would say hours and hours spent counseling together side by side with the women on our team. I never cease to be amazed at the ministry that's taking place, the things that are said, the way that the spirit is leading the women in our team to say things and go places that I would just never say or go. And as you just stand back, you're just like, this is holy ground right now. Let's take our shoes off because this is incredible.

Nathan: 23:58

Again, yeah, so blessed by the women on our team and how they're being used.

Shauna: 24:02

That is so encouraging for men to counsel. I mean, because I I remember one time my pastor, we had left a session together, and he said, I'm just so glad that I invited you in this conversation because you were able to go to a place with her that I wouldn't have been able to. And even as our pastor and shepherd, it's like he's in the room, and so he still is caring for her in that particular way. But inviting a female counselor into the room with you is just, it's just impactful. And it's awesome to see the Lord work in that way.

Nathan: 24:27

Amen.

Shauna: 24:28

So hopefully other pastors will get that hint. I just wanna say before we forget is I am so just on behalf of ABC, I know our whole entire team is just thankful for you that we're thankful for Hope Church. Y'all have just been with us for a long time, been very patient for our small and mighty team as we've grown and had some of those things. And so I just I'm just we're just incredibly grateful for your partnership. And then the other thing is when we were meeting with you a couple days ago in your office, Michael pointed out that he saw your rolled oats and your healthy lifestyle.

Shauna: 24:57

And you're obviously, I think fitness is an important thing for you. And I think that's important thing for Michael in our life right now too. And I'm hoping that other people who are listening is taking health important. So do you have any feedback of rhythms, health, anything like that that maybe we can encourage our pastors and ministry leaders to just make sure that caring for themselves is important.

Nathan: 25:16

Yeah. I think that's something over the last couple of years that I start actually, really during COVID that I started to take this seriously. So we have a personal trainer in our church who started posting videos during COVID. He's like, hey, can't get to the gym. Do this in your house.

Nathan: 25:31

So do a 100 push ups a day.

Shauna: 25:33

A 100?

Nathan: 25:34

A 100. Let's split it up. Do 10 here, 20 here.

Mike: 25:36

Some calisthenics, man.

Shauna: 25:37

Okay. Okay.

Nathan: 25:37

Calisthenics. And he he was like, that for a week. And then the next week, was like, do a 100 jumping jacks a day. Do a 100 sit ups a day. That And so I started grabbing hold of these things, and I was like, man, like, this is so good.

Nathan: 25:49

You start to see some results. You start to feel better. Start to get some weight equipment and start to some resistance training, that that kind of stuff. And it's you know what? I'm 50 now.

Nathan: 26:00

This is when I'm supposed to be on the decline. I'm supposed to muscle mass is supposed to be decreasing, but it's you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna fight against that. And I don't see I don't see why how old are you, Michael?

Shauna: 26:11

44.

Nathan: 26:12

Okay. 44. I don't see why a 44 year old guy and a 50 year old guy shouldn't be getting stronger than they were in their twenties. I don't see why not. I don't see why not.

Nathan: 26:20

And to be moving toward that. And I heard something that I liked very much that said muscle is the organ of longevity. And I think that there's a lot of truth to that.

Mike: 26:29

It's also the muscle of suffering.

Nathan: 26:30

It is. It is, yeah. But it's a good suffering, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nathan: 26:35

Are worse forms of suffering for Yeah. So again, I think it is a stewardship issue. I think especially as you're getting older, the importance of what you're eating and making sure that you're getting good healthy food and lots of protein and trying to kill the sugar and all that kind of stuff I think is important. It's gonna it's gonna make us more effective. It's gonna be feeling better.

Nathan: 26:53

You're gonna have more energy. And and then mentally, I think it's just really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. That's really helpful.

Nathan: 26:57

Yeah. I'm all for it.

Mike: 26:58

Yeah. Speaking of protein Okay. I just I wanted to clear the air because I I did get a little passionate earlier. I wasn't trying to rebuke all of those who aren't doing things. It was just more of trying to stir them.

Mike: 27:10

And as you were sharing more things, it reminded me where he feeds the 5,000. But some of you may not know there's a couple different narratives. Some may argue it's two different times where he was feeding the 5,000. But neither here nor there, what I wanted to focus on and what made me think of this is that this particular account where Jesus actually tells his disciples for you to give them something to eat. And what I appreciate about that and to tie that into what this conversation in pioneering and just trusting God will do something with it is they had five loaves and two fish.

Mike: 27:42

And in those five loaves and two fish, Jesus said, bring it to me. So really what that means is we feel insufficient to meet the need of the moment. A lot of our ministry, people needing care, the crisis that they're in, we don't know what to do. But we have the word, we have the spirit, like we have everything that we need. And Jesus says, bring it to me.

Mike: 28:01

So we know right out of the gate, we have what we have is completely insufficient to meet the need. But when we bring it to him, he makes it enough.

Shauna: 28:09

That's great.

Mike: 28:10

And so I just wanted to say that for those of you who are here, because again, many of the podcasts that we've recorded here have just been trying to encourage those who feel that prick, feel that conviction, they feel something there that the Lord is drawing you towards something. And hopefully these podcasts have been an encouragement to know that in in even hearing this podcast and the previous podcast that there's always humble beginnings. There's always those times where we have to just trust the Lord, bring to him what we have, and trust that he's gonna make it enough. He'll bless it, and he'll make it enough. Thank you.

Mike: 28:46

Thank you, Nathan. Nathan, thank you for being with us. Thank you for all the work that you're doing, everything that Shauna was sharing earlier, and just your continued faithfulness and trust in the Lord's doing here and then the partnership with ABC. We appreciate it, brother.

Nathan: 29:00

Yeah. And so do we. Sincerely, we have. And when you love something, you talk about it. When you're excited about something, you can't help but promote it.

Nathan: 29:10

And that's that would be our heart for ABC. That's why we love to talk about it. So, yeah, very thankful for you guys.

Mike: 29:14

Very good. Well, thank you, guys. Thank you for listening. Again, if you have anything for us that you'd like for us to talk about, please email us at topics@speakthetruth.org. Thank you for listening.

Mike: 29:22

We'll see you guys next time.