Mike: 00:08

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.

Mike: 00:19

Hello. Hello. Hello. We are still in Ontario.

Emily: 00:23

Yo. Yo. Yo.

Mike: 00:24

Who is that? Shauna, when you hear this again, that's two days in a row that she's taken your yo yo yo.

Emily: 00:30

Gonna take over, Shauna.

Mike: 00:32

Hey. This is the ABC team. We are in the last day for the conference here, the Biblical Counseling Coalition Canada Conference focusing on identity. And, we wanna just highlight today some folks in Canada who are pioneering things. And so I wanted to let Emily come in just on the ABC side and partnering with these pioneers.

Mike: 00:55

And so, Emily, you want to share a little bit of what's going on this side of the world and then introduce our guest.

Emily: 01:02

Yeah. Last night, we got together with, I don't know, about 20 people that are doing training here in Canada. So we are starting new training centers from coast to coast right now in Canada, and it is so exciting. Just hearing their stories last night was so encouraging to me. I wish we could have recorded it for you all, but we have one of our training leaders here, Betty Ann Van Ries, and she is doing class in her local church, but Betty Ann is one of the biblical counseling pioneers here in Canada, like Michael said, and we want to give her a chance to just share a little bit more about who she is, how she got started, and I love the story you told last night because it went way back.

Emily: 01:51

And so maybe you could introduce yourself and then start there.

Betty-Anne: 01:54

Okay, I'm Betty Anne Van Rees, and I live in Cambridge, Ontario.

Mike: 01:58

Cambridge.

Betty-Anne: 01:59

And yeah, it's not nearly as impressive as the Cambridge in England. One of the things you might notice as you travel around Ontario is that we've borrowed a lot of names from especially The UK but other parts of the world. We have a Paris too.

Emily: 02:12

Oh, funny.

Betty-Anne: 02:13

Yeah. And a London. We have all the things. I think probably the most important thing about me is I'm a nana. I have a 10 year old and a five year old grandchildren.

Betty-Anne: 02:21

They live in my neighborhood, so I get to walk them to school and pick them up from school and stuff like that, which I really love.

Mike: 02:26

Sounds like you and Wendy have a similar setup.

Betty-Anne: 02:28

Yeah. Very cool. Although, sure, hers aren't as close. But, yeah, she gets to spend lots of time helping out with them too.

Mike: 02:35

Very cool. So outside of that, Emily was saying, just we keep referring to pioneering, so let's let's track that out a little bit of how did you come into biblical counseling and like what she was saying of just that story last night and just how compelling and moving that was. Yeah. And to have something that you were sharing last night to where you felt this need and this desire based on where you were in life and that conviction followed you and led you to Wendy and just now all of a sudden here you are and just chart out that course, if you would.

Betty-Anne: 03:08

Yeah. I and I think the foundation of that story is that I was saved as an adult. And when I was saved, I was in university studying social sciences in secular school. And feeling by the end of that degree that I had I was learning more from the Bible about how life actually works than I was getting from my degree. So I did never use that degree until I needed it to start a Masters in Biblical Counselling.

Betty-Anne: 03:30

But yeah, so in 2000 my husband was killed in a work accident and it just the bottom fell out of our world. Psalm 46 where it talks about the waters roaring and foaming and the mountains falling into the heart of the sea. That's what it felt like in our lives.

Mike: 03:47

Like just chaos.

Betty-Anne: 03:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was no bottom. What are we standing on now?

Betty-Anne: 03:52

It was really scary. And I knew I needed help. I knew that my kids needed help. And I knew the help was in God's Word, but I didn't really know how to access it. And the church at the time, not just my church, but I think the church in general in Canada, didn't know either.

Betty-Anne: 04:07

We weren't prepared for big suffering really. The Bible had mostly been about what do I do about comfort. I had this desperate need and I limped along for a couple of years actually before reaching out for help. And in the meantime I thought about going back to school. Was just trying to figure out how should life work now.

Betty-Anne: 04:27

And I was looking at like how do we learn how to help people God's way. I don't even know what I was saying but I literally called all of the Christian colleges and universities across the country that I could find and asked them about a higher level degree and everybody said that's not what we offer. I realized eventually I was asking for biblical counseling but I didn't know that's what I was asking for. I wasn't using that language. I didn't know it was a special thing.

Betty-Anne: 04:53

I just thought that's what Christians did. Christian would help people understand how to live their lives with the Bible. So anyways, I stumbled on I didn't tell you guys this last night but I stumbled on John McArthur I don't think I told you this online no on the radio not online

Mike: 05:10

Grace for you or something.

Betty-Anne: 05:11

Yeah yeah it was coming out of Buffalo I think Buffalo New York WDCX and usually you get it for two minutes while you're driving and then it's gone again on the radio how that works and I feel like God divinely kept that thing open for me for the whole a whole drive and I was listening to it speak on the sufficiency scripture I'm like that's exactly what I'm looking for. How do I find somebody who's going to help us with that? And so I called Grace To You actually I thought I'll take the kids to California we'll go there and get help. And so they told me about the NANC website at the time and I went on the NANC website they told me anybody from our church is going to have this area code and so I'm like I don't even know what I'm doing but whatever I went on the website and looked and I noticed that Canada was a tab So I checked Canada and there were four in Canada. And my world was so tiny back then.

Betty-Anne: 06:03

I didn't even actually drive hardly at all. My husband drove everywhere I didn't need to drive. We lived in the country in the middle of nowhere. And anyways three of them had addresses but they were all farther away than I would want to drive and one didn't have an address but it did say a Mennonite church and there's Mennonites in my area so I'm like just call one of the Mennonite churches in my area one that has a phone. And I called, and I said, wouldn't happen to know who a Wendy Bowman is, which is and they said

Mike: 06:30

Now I understand her reference us last night when we were doing a picture. It's just something about a Mennonite anyway.

Betty-Anne: 06:36

Yeah. She has Mennonite background.

Mike: 06:37

Yeah. And that would all make sense.

Betty-Anne: 06:39

Yeah. Yeah. I and they said, oh yeah, let me give her your phone number, her phone number and he started giving me the phone number and it's I'm sure like you are except for her phone number I could tell was right in my locale. It had the same three numbers like after the

Mike: 06:54

area Those

Betty-Anne: 06:57

three numbers were the same. And I'm I like laughed. I'm like you gotta be kidding me. I thought I was going to California.

Mike: 07:05

I was like nope.

Betty-Anne: 07:06

No and she actually came to our home and counseled us in her home.

Emily: 07:09

Wow. And

Betty-Anne: 07:10

cared for us in a way that it was just it opened my life up to something brand new with the Lord and and has changed it obviously. Yeah and helped me get my feet under me and on the rock so that I could figure out how to walk this new life that God was calling me to walk out.

Mike: 07:28

Isn't that interesting? Like, you knew that there was a need for a help that you couldn't articulate, but you knew it when you saw it, when you heard it, when you felt Totally. Yeah. And then from that, now it's exactly what you wanna give to people.

Betty-Anne: 07:42

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So it really it became a deep passion of mine to help the church learn that we are supposed to be doing this.

Betty-Anne: 07:50

The ones who need to offer the hope because every other hope is gonna be too small. The church I was in at the time, the pastor was allowed to counsel me twice and then I was supposed to go to a professional and a professional would have been a secular and I thought they're gonna think I'm crazy because all of my questions are about God. I need to understand does he know what's happening to us? Does he care? Is he got a plan here?

Betty-Anne: 08:14

Does he see us? Yeah. Yeah. Are are we in trouble? Is he punishing us?

Betty-Anne: 08:18

All of those big questions that needed real answers and Wendy helped me.

Mike: 08:24

Yeah. It's really good to connect it to The States a little bit experientially speaking. That was when Sean and I needed help, and we went to our church, and they're like, yeah. We can't really help you with that. So they referred us out, and they actually referred us to Jeremy.

Betty-Anne: 08:39

Oh, awesome.

Mike: 08:41

But to that point, when we went to Jeremy in our first session, he opened up James four, why is there fighting and quarreling among you?

Betty-Anne: 08:46

Yeah.

Mike: 08:47

Very similar to your experiences just so we could realize, no. Like, this needs to be in the church. Yeah. And then just over the years realizing that the tremendous disservice that we're doing in our church because we're preaching a gospel that doesn't sustain people. Yeah.

Mike: 08:59

We're preaching a gospel that quote unquote saves people, but when the weight of that saving needs to be sustained, we're referring people out.

Betty-Anne: 09:07

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the gap is that we're missing the second half of the Great Commission, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you.

Mike: 09:14

Exactly.

Betty-Anne: 09:14

Yeah. We need to know. And I think, like, wonder sometimes if pastors, because they're so deep in it, they don't realize how big the leap is for the average person in the pew. Yeah. I'm not sure but I just think it is a big leap and nobody needs to be ashamed of that.

Betty-Anne: 09:29

It's a learn you learn these skills of how you actually take the level into your life. It's not something you automatically know because you love Jesus. Yeah.

Mike: 09:37

Yeah. And that's actually a huge, like, conviction of mine where I'm all about the public ministry of the word. Yeah. But I think we really truly have, functionally speaking, abdicated that that shepherding piece Yeah. That the church needs to do.

Mike: 09:51

And I think that's what I appreciate about, at least in the reformation, and we love our Puritans. We love their theology. But, man, they were just unbelievable in their shepherding. Like, they got it. They understood it.

Mike: 10:02

Now I understand we don't live in those times, but a lot of churches don't have a budget where they can hire three or four pastors to help with that personal ministry of the word. And then also how do we interpret Ephesians four and equip the saints for the work of ministry? So there's just a lot of functional pieces of the church being the church that we're missing. Yeah. So I appreciate you sharing your story in that.

Mike: 10:21

And then so after you you received what you knew you needed and god's gracious care and just leading you until you knew what you needed and found it, so how did that begin to cultivate when you're like, okay. I wanna give my life to this. So how did that kinda connect here in just the pursuit of counseling and academia for you and connecting those dots to where now you're mobilizing the church in Canada?

Betty-Anne: 10:47

Yeah. It was it was like, obviously, I was a single mom. I was still homeschooling. We were building my house, our house when my husband died. So we were in a half finished house.

Betty-Anne: 10:56

Like, it was just chaos. So everything moved really slowly.

Mike: 10:58

Tarps everywhere? Just like literally?

Betty-Anne: 11:00

No. We had we were sealed up.

Mike: 11:02

So that's good. Little cold again.

Betty-Anne: 11:04

Yeah. Flywood floors and no doors on Yeah. No trim Yeah. Kinda stuff like that. But yeah.

Betty-Anne: 11:11

So everything moved slowly. And plus, I had never had to make decisions by myself. So Mhmm. Decision making was a huge thing for me. So Wendy was ACBC certified or NANC at the time.

Betty-Anne: 11:23

Yeah. And so I started down that road and I took the first steps and I'm like, I'm not gonna feel like I'm ready when I'm done this. So I was at a CCF conference and there was a lunch for a degree at Masters University and I went to the lunch and paid for it. Degree so I went back to school and they were the only people offering a distance learning opportunity, and that worked really well for me so I could be home with my kids and continue homeschooling. My daughter was in high school, and I was doing school alongside it.

Mike: 11:56

So you got a master's for master's?

Betty-Anne: 11:57

I did. Yes. Yeah. And that was, like, 2006 to. And then yeah I just somewhere in there we started thinking about what can we do in Canada.

Betty-Anne: 12:09

I think maybe about 2012 I was invited to the BCC and Bob Kellerman was the executive director at the time and he was just shoving me like go do something in your country you can do something like who's gonna listen to me and I'm like I don't have a job I don't anything I'm not like I'm not on staff in a church anywhere. I just go you can do it and I'm okay I'll try. So anyways I contacted people most of them are here still part of the board and said do you want to talk about this and so we got together and talked about it and obviously Wendy was one of those people and it took us a while to decide what we going do. We didn't want to assume that we were going to be a coalition, but it did seem like it was a good choice for us that we didn't want to be like a certifying body. We didn't want to be an educational institution.

Betty-Anne: 12:56

We wanted to rally the troops and so that's really how we see our role is helping people who are doing it and putting wind in their sails. So yeah all of that was a super slow movement just the whole thing Took me five, six years to get my master's, which is not supposed to take that long. But I was

Mike: 13:15

When life happens to

Betty-Anne: 13:17

you. Mom.

Mike: 13:17

Yeah. When life's happening.

Betty-Anne: 13:18

Yeah. Yeah. It was okay. And, yeah. And then even I feel like I don't know if I should say this publicly, but I'm going to.

Betty-Anne: 13:26

I feel like Canadians, and maybe you've noticed this, and maybe you will now that I say it, tend to be less strategic than Americans.

Mike: 13:34

Why do you think that is?

Betty-Anne: 13:36

I don't know what it is, but I just feel

Mike: 13:37

like I don't say that in agreeing with you. I'm just following what you're saying and asking.

Betty-Anne: 13:41

We just don't tend to be like we're not like movers and shakers.

Mike: 13:44

Initiators?

Betty-Anne: 13:45

Yep. Not so much. And we just move slowly and applaud more.

Mike: 13:49

You think that has to do with just this how you guys like, life moves slower up here. Like the season. Cold,

Betty-Anne: 13:56

the last in January.

Mike: 13:57

Well, it's funny you say that, Betty Ann, because being originally from Michigan, I like when I transitioned to Texas, that was one of just observably, like one of the things I noticed. I'm in Texas. It's hot here. Like, people up north, like, it could be 30 degrees outside and people have their window halfway down.

Betty-Anne: 14:13

Oh, yeah.

Mike: 14:14

And it just airflow just it just culturally, just those differences. Yeah. But being in Michigan up north, just people were outside. Like, the weather didn't, obviously, weather impacted, but it it like in Texas, like, rains and, like, people just freak out driving. It's just it's yeah.

Mike: 14:29

It's just Yeah. It's different. But Canada

Betty-Anne: 14:31

tolerate our weather.

Mike: 14:32

Yeah. Yeah. Because it is primarily, like, really cold for, what, eight months out of the year? Or not so much here.

Betty-Anne: 14:38

Not really. Yeah. We probably have. It's March, and it's already decent.

Mike: 14:43

Yeah. Do you get more, like, lake effect then?

Betty-Anne: 14:45

We do. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say January, February, March ish into March is cold. But most of the rest of year is tolerable.

Betty-Anne: 14:54

But yeah, and and older I get, the less I enjoy the cold. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, but yeah, I don't know. I just think so it's that's okay.

Betty-Anne: 15:01

Like we know that about ourselves. And even if we don't recognize it, it's just a reality. Things do move a little bit slowly. We're not like dying to make things happen.

Mike: 15:09

Guy clearly honored even your pace.

Betty-Anne: 15:12

So much. We we just blown away. And even like, when I I reached out to Nathan who's here at Hope about

Mike: 15:20

Yeah. We'll be doing a podcast with him shortly.

Betty-Anne: 15:22

With coming on the board or joining our conversation, whatever it was we were doing, I had no idea. I wasn't looking at, oh, jeez. Like, Hope would be a great place to have a conference. We weren't even thinking conference. We were like oh we'll never be able have a conference.

Betty-Anne: 15:35

That's too big. It's just a few of us. But they have been such immense partners for us. It's been amazing. Yeah God he's helped us every step of the way.

Betty-Anne: 15:46

The awesome thing is we know that what we're looking at is the work that he's done.

Mike: 15:50

Yeah. Yeah. It's really good like when the church is the church and it actually functions the way that the Lord intended it to by his spirit. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: 15:59

So, yeah, it's good. So, Emily, you wanna tie that into just as far as ABC is concerned and just how ABC has partnered in their mobilization efforts to really just mobilize Canada for the local church.

Emily: 16:10

What I was struck by last night is all these these churches in little towns, area like, how everybody was connected. Like, the church is small, and they know each other through this thing or that thing, how these littlers are just wanting so desperately to train their people to help others, and just these even small communities of 300 people, or 1,000 people, or whatever, and how you guys have really helped them to get the training they need for the foundational, and now they're ready to start to train their church. And so it's about to explode. Even last night it was, there's three new people that are just ready to launch training ministries in various places in Canada.

Mike: 17:02

Like obscure locations, right?

Emily: 17:04

Yeah. I have 10 people wanting to start in the fall, I have 20 people that wanna get, but I've just wanted to do my own training first, and then how they've all been connected really somehow to Wendy. I don't know, Wendy's like everywhere.

Betty-Anne: 17:20

Wendy is, like she's a really great motivator. Like the very first conversation

Mike: 17:24

So she is the initiator?

Betty-Anne: 17:25

She really is. Yeah. She's the one.

Mike: 17:27

One out of 10.

Betty-Anne: 17:27

Yeah. Yeah. Or a 100. When I had my very first conversation with her like trying to like interviewing her, could she counsel us? We had enough conversation that she said, you need to get my training.

Betty-Anne: 17:40

Like, in the before we even started counseling, she's saying that to me. And so, like, in the room last night

Mike: 17:45

You're like, really? She's trying to sell me? I need help right now.

Betty-Anne: 17:47

She brought all those people to the dinner who thought they were just coming to dinner. And oh, yeah. Because you're gonna be a trainer. And so she's that person. She's really good also like Bob at just giving that shove from behind and saying, go, and you can do it.

Betty-Anne: 18:00

You can do it.

Emily: 18:01

Yeah. Yeah. And so I just That's cool. It's it's so interconnected and interwoven, all these different training opportunities, but we just are so thankful. Canada is really like on fire to be able to help people in the local church.

Emily: 18:16

And what I love about the ETC curriculum is that it's meant for the church to train the church. These people can do it. And then they can start to spread out from there. And they're not even just about their own church. They're saying, want to help train the community of in my And that's Wendy's heart too.

Emily: 18:37

Like I don't think any of those people were from Wendy's church. No. Like they're all from all these different churches and she's driving an hour and forty five minutes to help them. And so the coalition being this like sail in the wind, like you said, and then just these pioneers that are out helping people to get trained so that they can then begin to train. And that's just the heart.

Emily: 18:59

That's the heart of ABC, right?

Betty-Anne: 19:01

Yeah. And that really is the heart of the CBCC too. Right? We're not thinking that everybody should be a counselor, but we do think everybody should be equipped. Yeah.

Betty-Anne: 19:09

So in my class, I've got I've got a youth worker who just wants to serve her. She's she's a volunteer youth worker.

Emily: 19:16

Praise the lord.

Betty-Anne: 19:16

And she's paid to do ABC training because she wants to serve those kids better.

Emily: 19:20

And I'm, her biggest cheerleader. So proud of that that she wants that. Yeah. Betty Ann, is this, your first class this year in your, like, in your church and with your community that you've I know you did some things with Wendy early on. Yeah.

Betty-Anne: 19:35

Yeah, we did a class together before the pandemic, and then I worked for a few years at Heritage College and Seminary. Then this year I'm not. And so I thought, I'll do it again. And Wendy's held my hand to get me going. And my classes are all from my church.

Betty-Anne: 19:52

Have 11, I think five are from my church. Five from other churches and other ministries. I've got a guy who's a full time member care person

Emily: 20:00

in missions. So, yeah. And you were telling me, like, this is just almost your favorite couple days of the month.

Betty-Anne: 20:09

Oh, totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I do feel like I have a golden class right now.

Betty-Anne: 20:14

I don't know if I'll ever have class like this again. They're just there's so much there so many rich thinkers in there deep and yeah. The conversations are so good.

Mike: 20:23

It is exciting to see when the people that the Lord has brought that you get to teach to encourage and equip and yet but Ashana's point yesterday at our dinner of just what God can do with one person. Yeah. And to think with that idea knowing that when you look at your ten, fifteen, 20, whatever students and you're like like, there's gonna be a lot of fruit here. Yeah. So this can be very interesting, Lord, to see what you do here.

Betty-Anne: 20:46

Yeah. That's that's what it feels like to be here at the conference too, as we just look out at that and know, God, you're helping us multiply ourselves, we'll be gone one day. And these are the people you're gonna use to carry

Mike: 20:56

it It's that kingdom legacy, that gospel legacy.

Betty-Anne: 20:58

That's gonna be his legacy. But, yeah, just as long as the work continues, we're gonna be happy.

Mike: 21:03

That's awesome. Betty Ann, thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate you sharing your story. And for those of you out there who, like Betty Ann was sharing in her story, who just maybe are feeling a little overwhelmed by life and circumstances right now, but you feel the Lord tugging at you and you have a strong conviction to fight for something that you know that you need, that you wanna do something in your context, just trust the Lord's power and sustaining grace to give you what you need to just be those initiators. When we see something and we see a gap in something, that's typically the Lord's calling in us to do something.

Mike: 21:36

He's empowering us by first showing us what is there and what needs to happen and then being able to actually help him do that. So I hope that was encouraging for you guys. Again, if there's anything that you'd like for us to talk about topically, please email us at topics that speak the truth. We'll see you guys next time. Thank you for listening.