Mike: 00:08

Welcome to speak the truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.

Mike: 00:19

Hello. Hello. Hello. I am back in studio. Our studio has moved, and we're gonna be doing another book with some someone who's been on our podcast several times.

Mike: 00:28

We've got Jonathan Holmes with us. Jonathan, how are we doing, brother?

Jonathan: 00:31

Doing good, man. So glad to be back.

Mike: 00:33

Yeah. Glad to have you. And we're still at the Biblical Counseling Coalition Canada Conference here in Oakville, Ontario. I wanted to have Jonathan on because as we're talking about identity here at the conference, Jonathan has spent some specific time here with his latest book release, Grounded in Grace, helping kids build their identity in Christ. Would you arguably be considered a prolific writer at this point?

Mike: 00:57

Is prolific writer like what is it? Four or five book? Like, when do you become or is it a 10 plus?

Jonathan: 01:02

It's gotta be 10 plus. That's definitely Paul Toutch's territory for sure. So he I definitely think the word prolific should be used with him. But, yeah, I still have a long ways to go, I think.

Mike: 01:12

I don't know. I think your disciplines at the rate that you're releasing books is pretty good. But we've had Jonathan on, and guys, I'll put this stuff in the show notes for our previous podcast, but counseling couples is a tremendous help. Rescue plan, rescue skills, we did those books, and those are a tremendous help as well. And so my pastors and counselors out there who listen to the podcast, I would encourage you to get those books.

Mike: 01:33

Again, I'll put those in the show notes. But let's get back to Grounded in Grace, helping kids build their identity in Christ. And so what actually galvanized your heart, Jonathan, to to write this book?

Jonathan: 01:44

Yeah. First of all, I'm a dad. My wife, Jenna, I, we have four kids. I've got three teenagers and one in elementary school, and I see a lot of families in the counseling room. And I think as you know too, Michael, there are just alarming stories that come out every day about just mental health and teens and young adults, whether it's suicide, depression, anxiety, gender and identity confusion.

Jonathan: 02:06

And when I would talk to parents, a lot of the conversations would actually come back to issues of identity. I don't know who I am. I'm trying to figure out who I am. I'm trying to listen to my friends. I'm trying to listen to things on social media.

Jonathan: 02:19

Not really listen to my parents because they're old fashioned and we don't go to them for advice. And so what I wanted to do was to hopefully put together a book for parents, for youth leaders, for anybody who cares or disciples young people today to try to help them really answer some of these big picture questions about identity that I think actually have some surprising implications for kids and teens today.

Mike: 02:42

Yeah, that's really good because I just obviously Grounded in Grace is a fantastic title and then trying to understand how a child's identity is formed. Obviously, part of that identity in grace, there's emotions tied to grace. Right? So you got joy. So there you've got this young soul that has external pressures, external things, and then how do we shepherd and cultivate this tender soul that's so malleable?

Jonathan: 03:11

I think the fact that you're bringing up emotions is so good because I do think our kids and teens today are faced with an immense amount of pressure to figure out who they are. And I'd say primarily the world says, hey, it is all about your emotions. Dig deep into your feelings. What is it that you're feeling today? What is it you're feeling tomorrow?

Jonathan: 03:28

And that's what you base your identity on. And for many kids, their feelings change all the time. One day they can wake up and eat mac and cheese, the next day they hate mac and cheese. One day they wake up and they're happy about school and their life, and the next day they wanna drop out and quit. Feelings are good, but they're not the most stable thing to build one's identity on.

Jonathan: 03:46

And I think a lot of kids and teens today have taken in so many messages about identity, somewhat subconsciously, that it is rooted in your feelings, that grounding a person's identity and grace is somewhat of a new paradigm for them to help them understand, you don't have to figure this out. It's already been figured out for you. And it is a gift of God's grace. Our identity comes from the Lord. It doesn't come from us.

Mike: 04:09

No, that's really good. And structurally speaking, the way that you've developed and formatted the book, it's five core areas of identity, right, struggling most, sports, academics, moralism, sexual orientation, and gender confusion. Those are

Jonathan: 04:24

Those are the those are, I would say, are the five core identity struggles that a lot of kids and teens are facing. So if you divide it up, not evenly, the first three chapters are I am what I do, and the second two chapters are I am what I feel. And some kids struggle with both, like they struggle placing their identity in their work, their academic performance, how many points they scored in a basketball game, did they make a soccer goal? Some kids really root their identity in just being a good person. I actually find a lot of Christian parents today are facing that, especially with older teens that have just grown up in the church.

Jonathan: 04:57

They think the gospel is, Hey, good news plus my good works. And so we can easily build our identity on that, on our academic performance, sports or good works. And then the second half of that middle section is, I am what I feel. So I am who I'm romantically attracted to, or I am what I feel as it relates to gender identity. And again, on all of those things, I am what I do, I am what I feel.

Jonathan: 05:20

I'm trying to push parents and youth workers and counselors towards, no, you are who God says you are. And at the end of the day, his voice is the definitive voice.

Mike: 05:28

That's really good. Your take on writing it to those individuals, parents, staff, church staff, student pastors, student ministers. How are you, or children ministers for that matter, how are you galvanizing them or exhorting them into this partnership? Yes. How did you weave all of that together?

Jonathan: 05:47

One of the first things at the front end of the book, I just encourage parents, and it's one of those super easy things that's easy to miss because it's as obvious as the nose on our face, but parents have to disciple their children. And what I try to say at the front end of the book is, if you're not going to help ground your kid's identity in Christ, somebody will be more than happy to ground their identity in something else. So parents have to be proactive here and really take the lead. We really root that in Deuteronomy six, like the Lord tells us to teach and to talk to our children about the Lord. And I think honestly, you look at who the biggest voices are in our kids and teens lives, parents are probably not high on the list right now.

Jonathan: 06:26

It's social media people, it's influencers, it's sports stars, it's teachers, it's people actually outside of the home. And I'm not saying that those voices aren't good or helpful, but the primary voices I think that the Lord has placed in our kids' lives are parents. Like God's called parents to steward this to steward this vision of communicating who the Lord is to our children. And so a lot of the book really is written towards parents. And it's written to, like you said, galvanize them to also encourage them.

Jonathan: 06:56

I talked to a lot of parents who have older kids and they feel like, oh, man, I messed up. I they're a junior in high school. I've wasted my time. And one of the things I say frequently throughout the book is it's never too early to start and it's never too late to begin. So if you're a parent right now and you're listening to this and you feel like my kid's a senior in high school or they're actually a young adult, don't give up.

Jonathan: 07:14

Don't lose heart. The Lord can use your words, influence for his good.

Mike: 07:18

Yeah, I appreciate that point too Jonathan because I know just in ministry and counseling that happens quite a bit and just in conversation and just the encouragement is no, that just means that you still have an opportunity. Just try to start being consistent now. Just just be consistent. But I wonder because to me that also presents another biblical focus of spiritual warfare. Yes.

Mike: 07:44

In the sense that Satan absolutely is using these other influences, and they're doing a far he's doing a far quicker and more intensive way of galvanizing.

Jonathan: 07:54

Oh, yeah.

Mike: 07:55

And so I just I know the it's really hard to traverse those things a little bit, and I can't imagine you trying to write that where you're trying to miss going down some of those rabbit trails. But, did you have any focus a little bit? Just was it layered with some of that sort of spiritual formation and spiritual

Jonathan: 08:11

Yeah. Do think it's layered in there, especially in the first two chapters. And I think you're absolutely right in highlighting just really if we could just expose what Satan does as it relates to identity. He gets us to doubt God's voice. And Satan has not changed up his game plan since Genesis three.

Jonathan: 08:26

He's been using it because it still works, which is essentially, I have something better to offer you than God does. And he sold that to Adam and Eve, and he's selling it today, and he loves selling it to kids, especially as it relates to identity, right? Who, what teen today wouldn't buy into the life from Satan of, do you really want to listen to the Bible about identity? That's some old book, right? That's an old book that's for your mom, your dad, grandparents.

Jonathan: 08:51

It's old fashioned. It's not really relevant. Satan, I think, will drive a Mack truck through that type of deceit and temptation to say, Listen, you don't need to depend on the Lord for identity. You don't need to depend on some figure that you can't even see to tell you who you are. You can do that on your own.

Jonathan: 09:06

You can dig deep into your feelings. You can do it on the sports field, in the academic classroom. You can do it through who you're romantically attracted to or what have you. And again, Satan's not gonna be front and center with that, but through media, through marketing, through social media, guarantee you he's selling that message to anyone who will listen to it.

Mike: 09:26

Yeah, that's really good. And to that point, just an encouragement to those of you who are student ministers or children ministers, and I know some of you personally, where much of your ministry is really trying to engage more with the parents. Because unfortunately, there is that that part of the population that sort of in the same way that parents can become moral babysitters, the church becomes moral babysitters. And if the only two out of the five voices are Christian that are parents, which God has specifically endowed you with that right, and then as an extension of that, the local church, and then from that those two spheres of influence and dominion really, right, to cultivate and support and shepherd, the other three man, if we're missing the mark on those other two, like the other three are gonna dominate. Absolutely.

Mike: 10:18

Dominate that.

Jonathan: 10:19

Absolutely. And that's where parents need to know and understand about the identity formation process, how kids come into a sense of who they are. Because again, I hear a lot of parents just lead with, The Bible says X, and they'll just list out God's commands or privileges or promises about identity. And they think that just the transfer of cognitive information is And I'd say that's just the starting point. That's not the destination.

Jonathan: 10:45

We want our kids to be worshipers of God. We want them to come into the full essence of who they are as image bearers of God. And that's gonna take a lot more than just the transfer of information to kids.

Mike: 10:56

Yeah, that's really helpful. This is actually a really fascinating topic because I do think and obviously within counseling, and I didn't mention it at the beginning because I'm so used to having you on the podcast. It's just being the executive director of Fieldstone Counseling in Ohio, just the amount of counseling that happens. But when we're going through people's stories and counseling, and we do their life story and their life map, and we look at from the ages of five to 15, the formation that's happening there. And realistically, you could take a couple of these core areas, and it morphs into what I what sports and academics were is what vocation becomes for an adult.

Jonathan: 11:35

100%.

Mike: 11:36

So, like, that just the urgency

Jonathan: 11:40

Yeah.

Mike: 11:40

Of grounding them in this grace that you're talking about because I have seen that in a lot of times. Jonathan, I obviously don't wanna speak for you. But in my experience with some of the men that I have counseled over the years where I grew up, they always go back to how they grew up, what they did have or didn't have, their influences, and certainly these five core areas of identity that you structure the book around. It's just very important. So I hope that's an encouragement to our listeners in that not to guilt you or anything or to Jonathan's point.

Mike: 12:08

If you already have a teenager and you feel like you've missed the mark there, there's still time because you can still be a part of the kids' lives as they get older. And I think that's the grace Yes. Later.

Jonathan: 12:19

Yes.

Mike: 12:19

Because when our kids get older and life happens to them, then they realize the things that we tried to do. I think Hebrews 12 makes that point of they did what seemed right to them Yes. Kind of thing. Any final thoughts on that, Jonathan?

Jonathan: 12:31

Yeah. No. You're absolutely right. It is a gift of grace. And if the entire identity formation process was in our hands, it was in you and Shauna's hands or my wife and I's hands, Yeah, we're gonna bungle it up.

Jonathan: 12:40

We're gonna mess it up because we're human beings. We're sinful, suffering saints and that's a part of our own identity. But what we can do is every day we can wake up relying on those New Morning Mercies that the Lord provides and ask the Lord, what would you have us do? How would you have us image the Lord to our kids to help forge and form this identity that we don't have to do anything to merit, we don't have to do anything to earn, but truly is a gift of God's grace?

Mike: 13:07

Yeah. That's really good. I appreciate that. So just in trying to wrap this up here in closing, just out of these five core areas, Jonathan, in your own personal experience, maybe in your counseling experience or even those that you supervise, what would you say in terms of these five core areas of identity? Which ones would you say need the most importance?

Mike: 13:28

Like in terms of focus and urgency with parents for those who are listening.

Jonathan: 13:33

I I definitely say probably the last two categories of sexual identity and orientation and gender identity and confusion. Those are obviously two culturally hot topics. And really the whole framework of I am what I feel is powered by this cultural narrative called expressive individualism, which is you are what you feel, just do whatever makes you happy. And Michael, you've seen it in marketing and TV and news. I mean, that message powers pretty much 100% of the marketing to teens and kids today of be your authentic self, be true to who you are.

Jonathan: 14:06

And what we've actually found is we've told a generation to go do that, and they're actually more lost than ever. They're more anxious, depressed, suicidal, struggling with mental health at rates that we've never seen before. So as parents, we need to take a step back and say something's off. The world has got it wrong. And Scripture actually from the very beginning has laid out a plan for identity that we need to come back to, that we need to reclaim as parents and as disciplers.

Mike: 14:33

Yeah. That's really good. And just a couple of thoughts on that myself is just out of these five core areas, sports and academics, there is a level of discipline there that I think would serve as someone gets older in the spiritual discipline. So I think there's a good conversion ratio there. But I also think with the other ones with sexual orientation and gender confusion where those are probably some of the quickest Yeah.

Mike: 14:56

Most severe in terms of destroying the human idea of soul and image. And that's obviously Satan's goal is he wants to try to he wants to you just to use the in the vernacular of marketing. He's campaigning to offer this image without God. And brothers and sisters, pastors, and just counselors out there, when you have parents coming to you for these two reasons, because this is honestly in our own ministry at Truth Renewed. We've had over the years several parents bring in their kids who are expressing this sort of trying to understand orientation, gender confusion.

Mike: 15:37

I'm not real sure. And then the parents come in, they're confused. They don't know how to speak to it. They're like, hey, here, talk to them. And I'm always I'm always like, no, but I need you in the room.

Mike: 15:47

And parent, do you not realize I'm an extension of you and I'm actually being seen worse than you because I'm a complete stranger. So I think this would be a good resource just to bring it full circle for the parents in that sexual orientation and gender confusion. Jonathan has spent some pretty significant time studying and researching and doing a large degree of work here and bringing it back to the biblical worldview of identity that it's grounded in that. And I would say, Jonathan, not to put words in your mouth, but this would be an extension of that to parents for kids.

Mike: 16:22

Yes. Be that mouthpiece to your kids.

Jonathan: 16:23

Be that mouthpiece to your kids. Learn Desmond Tutu has a great line. He says, we need to stop pulling kids out of the river, and we need to go upstream and find

Mike: 16:31

a problem all again. It Put on that life jacket and get after it.

Jonathan: 16:35

The life jacket. And I think in some ways that's what this book helps parents do is instead of pulling our kids out of the downstream, let's go upstream and find out why they're falling in. And I think one of the reasons why they're falling in to circle back around is they have bought into the world's lies about identity. And we have to reclaim a biblical vision for who we are and whose we are in Christ.

Mike: 16:57

Yeah. Because it really is coming back to that. Like, world is trying to present identity without God. Image without God.

Jonathan: 17:02

Yeah. And when you do that, you can do and be whatever you want.

Mike: 17:06

For a season, it's actually thrilling. That's why we all can relate to it because sin.

Jonathan: 17:09

It's totally thrilling for a season, but at some point, and I think for a lot of teens today, sooner rather than later, actually, you find the emptiness in it because you realize it's actually not pure happiness to just pursue my own happiness. I'm actually more miserable, more self involved, more self indulgent. I'm actually not designed for this. I think that's a part of what we're seeing in the downstream as it relates to mental health issues with teens and kids. As we've told them, hey, be who you are.

Jonathan: 17:37

And at the end of the day, they're trying to be who they are apart from God. And they're realizing that there's no true happiness in flourishing apart from the Lord.

Mike: 17:45

Yeah. That's really good. Just sorry. Last thought on that. Just maybe statistically, your thoughts.

Mike: 17:49

From the age of 15 to, let's say, 25, where that there's this, alright. I think I wanna actually begin to discover, and they get in this discovery phase where they begin to rebel the influence that parents have, like, in anyone that goes against whatever they're like, to your point, the two sections of your book, where now it's my feelings. That feelings is a is like a stage for discovery. Yes. And that discovery, like, lasting anywhere from three to seven years.

Mike: 18:18

I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but just like that that development period where, like, next thing you know, after college, they're done. And there is this emptiness because now it's like trying to find a career. The identity that I thought I was gonna be able to find in my sexual orientation and gender actually left me more hollow and empty. So I have to fill it with something. So it just it's like another anyway, it's

Jonathan: 18:40

just Another layer.

Mike: 18:41

The propensity of despair there just seems to anyway, I just any closing thoughts on that?

Jonathan: 18:47

Just Yeah. No. That that word discovery is important because I'd say in a postmodern society, identity is created. You get to do it on your own. In a post Christian society, which is this time period that we're in now, identity is discovered.

Jonathan: 19:00

You just feel your way towards it. And again, the whole premise of the book is no, it's not discovered. It's not created. It's given, and it's given to us by the Lord.

Mike: 19:09

That's good. Jonathan, as always, thank you, brother. Thank you for being with us.

Jonathan: 19:13

Thank you.

Mike: 19:14

I would again encourage you all to go get this book, especially for those of you in ministry, student leaders, student pastors, children ministers, children pastors, go ahead and get these books. Have them so when your parents the parents are coming picking up their kids, be able to just you got a budget. Maybe you could buy some of these and and just just have some copies laying around because I guarantee you'll be blessed, and those who will read it will be blessed as well. Thank you guys for listening. Again, if there's anything you'd like us to talk about, any topics that you'd like us to speak on, please email us at topics@speakthetruth.org.

Mike: 19:43

Thank you for listening. We'll see you guys next time.