Mike: 00:00

Welcome to speak the truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.

Mike: 00:11

Hello. Hello. Hello. As I've been saying, it's probably annoying to y'all at this point. I'm back at studio, but the studio is mobile.

Mike: 00:18

I am in Salem, Oregon still at the twenty twenty five made to minister conference where the focus and theme is god is our treasure, our ultimate treasure, the transformative power of knowing Christ. And as we've been going through these episodes, I've got a special guest with us, and she is special. And she's been on the podcast a couple of times, and I think she had her introduction to the podcast this time last year at the twenty twenty four Made Minister Conference. So I have with me Kristen Silva. How are doing?

Kristin: 00:48

I'm doing well.

Mike: 00:49

We wanted to capture this time with Kristen because she has a really good topic at the Made to Minister Conference. And as y'all have been hearing, I've been basically taking the breakout sessions from the speakers and talking about what they are bringing to the conference and the breakout sessions. They're bringing that to y'all in this podcast. And, basically, her session is coping strategies, replacing our flawed strategies by understanding the character of God. But before we jump into that, Kristen, how have you been?

Kristin: 01:17

I've been doing well. It's been a full year, a good year. Exciting to to develop more teaching and dig into life and see the Lord at work.

Mike: 01:28

Awesome. So you're in Portland. Right?

Kristin: 01:30

Yep. Yep. Just south of it.

Mike: 01:31

And before I'm trying to remember before Portland, were you on the East Coast?

Kristin: 01:36

I grew up in the San Diego area.

Mike: 01:38

Oh, so you've been okay.

Kristin: 01:40

Yeah. But I bound I did I did an internship with CCEF out on the East Coast, and I went for undergrad out there.

Mike: 01:46

So how do you like the summers in Portland? I would imagine you would really enjoy the summers in Portland.

Kristin: 01:51

It's true.

Mike: 01:51

Because the rest of the year.

Kristin: 01:52

Because the summers are outstanding.

Mike: 01:54

Versus the rest of the year because if you're growing up in San Diego

Kristin: 01:57

Well, that's just the thing. I grew up in San Diego, and I longed for rain. Like, I just longed for there to be some sort of weather because my entire life was 75 and sunny. And I had no idea that was a everybody told me that

Mike: 02:12

was It's always sunny in San Diego.

Kristin: 02:13

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But now I feel like I I'm making up for that.

Kristin: 02:17

I get rain every day.

Mike: 02:19

Yeah. It's definitely making up for it. And then some, I think. Every time I come here, Sean and I are always enjoying, like, yesterday because we kinda had our day off before everything kicked off. So we went to Pacific City.

Kristin: 02:29

Nice.

Mike: 02:30

Yeah. And the drive going through, I don't even know what national forest that was that we went through, but I've never seen so many variations of green.

Kristin: 02:38

Oh, it's beautiful.

Mike: 02:40

And then Emily's just yeah. It's all it's like she's been here her whole life.

Kristin: 02:43

Yeah. Everything's just green together.

Mike: 02:45

And then ironically enough, we get over to the beach area, and the sun casts itself just a little bit. And Emily's she immediately it's like she just got stuck like, she got just frozen by the sunlight. It's just, there's a sun rain. She's like, stops what she's doing. And then I'm like, I met her with that.

Mike: 03:02

It was on my Texas snootiness. We get the sun three hundred days a year. So not a big deal to us.

Kristin: 03:08

That Portlandia sketch where everybody the ray of sunshine comes, and everybody goes and crowds underneath the sun for, like, the thirty seconds that it's gonna shine there. And it really does feel that way.

Mike: 03:18

Yeah. Emily definitely gave us that version yesterday. That was pretty awesome.

Kristin: 03:22

You gotta take every moment you get.

Mike: 03:24

Yeah. And, yeah, I I appreciate every time we come here. And you guys have heard this already, but you're gonna hear it again. But the May to Minister Conference is going to happen again this year in November. So that they're transitioning, so they're gonna kick it off every November.

Mike: 03:38

So now 2025, we get two two of these. So if you miss this one this year, you have another opportunity in November. I'll put the information to the twenty twenty five November conference. So at any rate, let's go ahead and jump in. Kristen, with your biblical counseling practice that you have in Portland and the different things that you've been doing.

Mike: 04:01

You're a writer. You've worked with CCEF. And what you've brought to this coping strategy conversation, could you just dive in a little bit more on just this topic? Sure.

Kristin: 04:12

I when we're sitting with people, we hear coping strategies all over the place, right, because we employ all these different means to handle the stresses in our lives. And I think what interested me about the topic is I think as biblical counselors, we're often we're often looking for the error. Right? Where's the false refuge? Where are you using something that's not the Lord to comfort you?

Kristin: 04:36

And that's true. Coping strategies are false refuges at the end of the day. But I was curious because it struck me that they're imperfect. They and you sit with people and you hear they actually do function. This is actually doing something.

Kristin: 04:53

Sure. It's not the fullness of Jesus Christ come to come beside you and to walk with you and to save you, but it is functioning. And so I was curious, how does scripture speak about that? And how do we understand that? And where would it guide us as we're sitting with people and see these things active in their lives?

Kristin: 05:12

Are there different ways rather than just saying you need to we need a better strategy. Are there ways that we can actually use what the Lord has already allowed to be for a while in a really robust way to point to him? So that that's the foundation of where I started from and how I developed, why I went in the direction I did here.

Mike: 05:33

No, that's really good. And just just so you all know, in context where we're coming from, basically, the goal in this breakout was to consider just the imperfect means sometimes that God uses to point to his greater redemptive purposes. And then really in this breakout session, you're going to be exploring God's character and helping us to understand the limited strategies we often try to rely on to navigate those things, like you were saying. But it's interesting in that, in that part of just a description, is I think to your point a moment ago, oftentimes we do look at the coping strategies as the end, not the means.

Kristin: 06:09

Uh-huh.

Mike: 06:10

Like, we Yeah. We do look at those. This is in other words, this is what's gonna fix it.

Kristin: 06:14

Yep. Absolutely. And I think as we watch those forming, okay, some even as Christians, there are things there are coping strategies we're gonna use. When you're really stressed out, it's probably a good thing to go on a run. Right?

Kristin: 06:26

It's a good thing to make sure you're getting good sleep and eating healthy food and good thing to go spend time with friends. Like, those are good things. But underneath it, I think they need to have that that deeper foundation of, oh, how wonderful that my king, my my heavenly father has given me these things that help me. He's the provider of all care and comfort. And so as we grow, the healthy ones, the good ones, we want them to have a deeper root.

Kristin: 06:57

We want to think through what are we seeing about the Lord in the fact that He allows these things to comfort us and to bring some respite and point to the fuller nature of what he does for us in Christ.

Mike: 07:11

That's really good. And then part of this as far as considering those limited strategies, it's really to the end of pain and suffering. Right? As the description states, and just focusing on that, what would you say as far as some of our limited strategies that we tend to employ to try to help us mitigate or minimize pain and suffering that arguably the Lord obviously brings these things into our life to draw us to himself. But how would you say that God uses those things to bring us back to that living hope?

Kristin: 07:44

I think they each and every one of them has in it has woven in it a glimpse of the character of God. They're common grace. There are things that everybody, believer and unbeliever alike, have access to, which means they're not gonna be the fullness of what's there, but they're gonna be glimpses of God's character. And just as a Christian, I might look at the rain and say, Oh, the Lord provides for me. Yes, that's good.

Kristin: 08:11

He provides. He makes things green and bright. But I know that his provision goes so much deeper than that. So I think with coping strategies, seeing them in that same light, we wanna learn to identify what is it about the Lord that's shining here and how as a believer do I come to him in the fullness of what he's come and what he's accomplished. And I think as counselors walking with people and slowing that down.

Kristin: 08:41

Identifying, Wow, the Lord has been so kind and so patient to allow this to hold you up. But what about Him are we seeing in it? And it just provides a really helpful little path to start to say, who is he? What's the fullest expression of that? And how instead of reaching for these things or underneath these things, how do we know him more deeply and more vibrantly?

Kristin: 09:05

They just become they become pointers. They become jumping off points instead of things just to dismantle. Because I think that's the temptation to see them and to want to replace them. But I think rather than replacing them, we want them we want to fill them out. We want to use them to jump.

Mike: 09:24

Yeah. That's really good. And the other part of the description to this conversation that you're having with just, again, continuing on in the idea of trying to employ these coping strategies and really the idea of replacing our flawed strategies in the character of God. What is the character of God? I think as you were sharing that a moment ago, Kristen, what I was thinking of in the Psalms where I actually was specifically went back to Psalm six.

Mike: 09:50

And just coming back to where David, Asaph, and others, people who penned these Psalms, would focus on, they would you would hear the emotional plight of the human experience

Kristin: 10:05

Mhmm.

Mike: 10:06

And trying to figure out, like, their coping strategy ultimately that's what I love about the Psalms. When you read the Psalm, you're reading the coping strategy.

Kristin: 10:13

Absolutely.

Mike: 10:13

You're Yeah. You're reading, Lord, and it's just these emotional responses to the circumstances. My enemies are after me. All of these different things going on. We can use a level of that to spiritualize or allegorize that in our own experiences.

Mike: 10:27

But I think what if I'm understanding a little bit more of this description for this conversation is God's love and his grace. And in the Old Testament, the idea is his his hesed, which is his loving kindness, which is covenantal.

Kristin: 10:43

Yes.

Mike: 10:44

And it's that hesed where anytime it, like, his steadfast love that so David is always pointing back to that character in the form of God's hesed, his love, his covenant love. Any thoughts on that?

Kristin: 10:54

So even you see God's faithfulness to his creation even outside of that salvific sense. Yeah. Right? Where he takes care of the lions. Right?

Kristin: 11:05

He takes care of the birds. He he tends to his creation. Or you even see the playing of the Noahic covenant, right? I'm not going to send another flood. I'm going to sustain this.

Kristin: 11:18

I'm going to restrain the evil.

Mike: 11:20

It's kind of like his common grace is his common care.

Kristin: 11:23

Yeah, absolutely. And I think coping strategies on their base level, that's what they are. They're God's common care. But as believers, we have such a much deeper He doesn't just care for us in a common way. He cares for us in this, I will come and I will find you, and I will make you my own, and I will pull you to my heart, and I will never let you go.

Kristin: 11:49

That's the kind of hope I want, that that not just, yes, you are an amazing god who takes care of your creation like this, but I wanna know the god who came near has drawn us to himself. I want the things that I'm leaning on to be that and to be pointed towards that. So even if I do employ some of these common grace strategies, I feel like we're robbing ourselves if we just let our if they're just if that's all that it is. Even if I want I go out, I'm stressed out and I go for a run. Again, helpful.

Kristin: 12:24

That's good for your body. It's good for your brain. It's good to help calm your thoughts down. But how do you access the depth of that hesed, that covenant faithfulness, steadfast love, even in that moment. And I think that's what I'm trying to stir on.

Kristin: 12:42

I'm watching how common grace functions. So that's the biblical root. And then seeing where do common grace things in scripture point us. And then I'm taking that a level up, and I'm thinking through, okay. If that's what these things are because you read any secular literature, and you're gonna hear, that's what they point to.

Kristin: 13:01

That is that and they do actually help. And so trying to grapple with that complexity, because I think again, I think we we want to go deep quickly, and sometimes people aren't quite ready for that. And being able to see where where the things that they're using are functioning and understanding that biblically to create that pathway to something deeper. And because I think we've all sat with people who just who aren't quite ready to let go of these things they've been leaning on. Whether it's fear, whether it's habit, whether it's just a total lack of knowledge.

Kristin: 13:42

And this is a really gentle way to turn it. To start to say, Look, This is what has been functioning. What do we learn about God in that? And how do we start to know something better and then building a different pattern that has that deeper, richer love underneath it?

Mike: 14:00

Yeah. That's really good. And so, like, with some of that, though, and I think that's, like you alluded to it towards the beginning of the conversation, just the temptation of when we go back to trying to employ these coping strategies, we tend to, and I was gonna say superficialize, but if I could say it that way, but we do, we enter into this level of superficiality again, where we're wanting to go for a run or do these things in God's creation and common grace, but he's already given us so much more than that. Uh-huh. It's think of Psalm 19 where you see the progression of God's general revelation, special revelation, and then applied revelation.

Mike: 14:36

Uh-huh. Like in the spirit and this biblical theology of God's common grace. And when we experience pain and suffering, how are we able to go to scripture and see God's communion with us? How he legitimately loves and cares for us? And I immediately think because you were talking about drawing near, and I was thinking about when you were saying that James four and those imperatives in James four.

Mike: 15:00

Submit to God, resist the devil, draw near, he will draw near to you.

Kristin: 15:04

Absolutely.

Mike: 15:05

And humble yourself. And there's this this gift of special grace, if I could say, like, a special grace that comes to us when we move beyond the things that are already yours that are common to all people. But going back to that has said that we have in Him that it, but it requires us to be humble. I think that's the hard part in our pain and suffering is it's very difficult for us because we're wrought with all of these emotions and all these things going on. It's hard for us to believe that sometimes in that moment when we're struggling, that God actually wants that for us.

Kristin: 15:37

That's his greatest.

Mike: 15:38

Yeah, any thoughts on that before I get to Psalm 19?

Kristin: 15:40

Yeah. I mean, I think that's always that's our goal in all of these things is life with Him. And to know and be known by Him, and that that's transformative. Right? Knowing His desire to enter even these small places with us and to come and to be our guide, to be our comforter, to be our good shepherd, to be our leader in it.

Kristin: 16:05

Always looking for ways to bring that down into the details of life.

Mike: 16:09

Yeah. That's really good. And just going back to that, because I think, Kristen, as you were saying, is this biblical theology of common grace in the way that like, Psalm 19, the law of the Lord is perfect, but it starts off, the heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor are there words whose voice is not heard.

Mike: 16:33

Their voice goes out throughout all the earth and their words to the end of the world. In them, he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber. And like a strong man runs its course with joy, its rising is from one end of the heavens and its circuit to the end of them. And there is nothing hidden from its heat. And then so that's like that general revelation piece.

Mike: 16:54

And then moving into verse seven, the law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart. The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes, and the fear of the Lord is clean enduring forever. The rules of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

Mike: 17:15

More to be desired are they than gold. Even much fine gold, sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is your servant warned. Now it's moving into kinda like the special revelation where the spirit sort of applies the reality of that special revelation to our hearts, where it's beginning to do something in us. And that's where it gets difficult where we're in our experience of pain and suffering, the reality of living in a broken fallen world, working against what the spirit is trying to do in us even through that experience, going back to that.

Mike: 17:47

So moving on, moreover, by them is your servant warning, keeping them there is great reward. Verse 11. Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins.

Mike: 17:59

Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless and innocent of great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, o lord, my rock and my redeemer. Like, having the soul get to that place when it's experiencing pain and suffering. That's a process.

Kristin: 18:16

Absolutely.

Mike: 18:17

And we tend to employ, going back to the point, we tend to employ those other things that ultimately those coping strategies aren't going to accomplish what's happening there in Psalm 19.

Kristin: 18:28

I think our hope is for them to turn them to be the first building block toward that. That that they would I don't know if you said it earlier, that they would never become the goal in and of themselves. That they would never become the fix, and they would never become the thing that that we're actually leaning on. But where we see we reach for them all the time. We watch we're exhausted, and we watch Netflix at the end of the day.

Kristin: 18:57

And it's not that right? It's not that those things are all bad. But what if those would become little indicator lights on our dashboard to say, I'm gonna I am gonna sit and I'm gonna watch a show, but I want it to start to lead me down that path of who is the Lord? Who has the Lord shown himself to be here? Who is the Lord in his special revelation?

Kristin: 19:22

And then who the Lord as he's actively working on me right now? I feel stressed in my life. That's why I want to do this thing. How do I start to point towards that final goal of knowing him as my refuge? Knowing him as the one who shelters me, knowing him as my my rest.

Kristin: 19:44

So even if I do choose to watch Netflix, to have had that maybe to have had that little conversation with them. Lord, you are the one I long for. And what a good gift that I get to live in this common common place, but what I truly long for is you. Just re reorienting, reframing. But I think that seeing them that they can point us there.

Kristin: 20:09

They can do that. But with the intentionality of looking at them as pointers and not as saviors.

Mike: 20:17

No, that's really good. Because as you were sharing, you brought up Netflix. I was I was thinking about and this is something I actually talk quite a bit about in in counseling. It's that hard space because what you're saying, like, how do you get them from okay. That's great.

Mike: 20:32

Like, you're looking at a common grace of the situation and trying to find some level of coping in that. But after a hard day's work and you go and watch Netflix, it's hard because really it's like in one sense, the flesh is exhausted. So you're appealing to something that's speaking to the flesh and the exhaustion of the flesh. So all it's doing is perpetuating the flesh. It's doing nothing for the spirit.

Mike: 20:56

So what's that? It's like, you can acknowledge the flesh where it's at in the moment. But how do we transition from the flesh to like, I'm actually gonna probably get more out of this if I transition into the spirit of, okay, where is the Lord in all of this? And how do I see the Lord even in my exhaustion? Does it make sense?

Mike: 21:13

I find that's really difficult because now we're getting into almost practicing spiritual disciplines, like for the soul.

Kristin: 21:19

I think it's about utilizing them. So I think in my counseling, my first goal is not necessarily to have you're exhausted to come and to have a time with the Lord. Sometimes that's just that's too big of a leap. Yeah. And if I put that on someone, they're probably not gonna come back.

Kristin: 21:42

Yeah. But if I can see them where they're at and I can see, oh, you're reaching for these things. Let's just I loved David Pelison always often used to talk about how it's not the speed at which we're going. It's the direction that would was to which we're pointed. Yeah.

Kristin: 22:00

And so I think that's my first goal. Alright. We're aimed at these things to fix us. And so what if we can just bring in that moment? I'm exhausted.

Kristin: 22:12

I'd love to just zone out with some streaming television. But if we can start to to use that moment to put a put let's become aware of it. This is a moment where the Lord is with me. And to think through what kind of rest does Netflix offer me? What am I actually longing for there?

Kristin: 22:35

And if I even that first step of whatever I think it's offering me, the Lord is better. The Lord is deeper and richer. Even just that first awareness of, He's gifted me this right now because He is a much deeper version of this. And maybe that's where we stop. If someone has that awareness, I consider that a counseling win.

Mike: 22:59

Yeah. Definitely.

Kristin: 23:00

But if we could just bring it into that moment, let's be listening for that moment. Then the next time, let's see if we can build something just a little bit bigger.

Mike: 23:08

Yeah.

Kristin: 23:08

And maybe we'll spend time thinking through, you've binged three hours of Netflix and it does not bring you rest, which is probably why we could you've come into counseling because this is not working for you. But let's talk about what it what it promises, what you long for from it. Let's use it. Let's use it for what it's doing and start to put a finger on your heart. Right?

Kristin: 23:30

So it's just that kind of we're getting into that second level. How do I stir on that and understand what my heart longs for? And maybe I'm gonna end up watching one show eventually, but if I can start to bring I'm just gonna start to talk to God about what I long for. I long for rest, and I don't know if you're here, and I don't know if you're at work, and I'm struggling to trust that. And this sounds a lot easier, and I wanna do that, but you will help me.

Kristin: 24:00

Teach me who you are. And that's just step number two, Beginning to voice those things, which is that same pathway that you were talking about. Draw near to the Lord. He will draw you near to you. I just want you to start speaking in a Godward direction.

Kristin: 24:16

Yeah. And I trust the things of the Lord are good. There is richness. There are riches there. There's gold there.

Kristin: 24:25

If we start building that, I trust that he's gonna woo you to it because he is much better than this. So almost exploiting our coping strategies. Yeah. Yeah. Because they do offer us, they offer us false hope.

Mike: 24:39

Yeah. It's because it's really, to some extent, really is providing temporary satisfaction or rest in the moment. It's funny you, as we were talking about this, Chris, I'm thinking of a particular case that I had where he was frustrated with, he was trying to grow and he, there wasn't, there wasn't a large amount of pain and suffering in his life. He just, he was trying to grow and he realized that there was just this stagnant, like life in Christ that he was experiencing. And this is where we got to.

Mike: 25:10

And I was trying to encourage him, because he unfortunately had a, he had a pretty good unfortunately, was before COVID or before people were working from home and they only had a 20 foot commute. He had a forty five minute commute. And so to your point where we've been talking about it was like that just the nuances of trying to get them to see that so that they can just begin to make that reorientation Uh-huh. Just a little bit. And for him in this particular case, it was because he didn't have Netflix even though he was gonna go home, and that's probably what he was gonna do.

Mike: 25:42

But then it's just like preparing his heart in the commute and just begin to pray. Just talk to the Lord. Just being honest about the day that you had. Where were your emotions? Where are your frustrations?

Mike: 25:50

All those things and just talking to the Lord so that he could be more prepared for when he gets home. And I do think to what you're saying, it almost like it just preps the heart a little bit. Absolutely. Like it primes the pump, so to speak.

Kristin: 26:02

As you start to speak your heart to the Lord there, I they lose their luster. The you get home and you think, oh, that would be good. And you maybe start to watch it and you think this is not it. Goodness. This not what I'm looking for.

Kristin: 26:17

Yeah. The Lord is faithful to that. Yeah. But just finding those moments to to enter in. Okay.

Kristin: 26:23

How do I just how do we just turn our gaze towards him? And knowing that yeah. Coping everything you're watching people use to fix that, they're all entry gates to that. We can turn them to point a different direction because they are telling us what we long for.

Mike: 26:40

Yeah. Yeah. Even though we may not realize it in the moment. Oh, it's good. Yeah.

Mike: 26:43

Alright. Great. And just in closing, Kristen, how would in terms of as maybe some people are hearing this episode and they're realizing like, oh, man, that sort of exposed my coping strategies a little bit. How would you encourage them maybe even to something that you've already said already? But just in closing, how would you encourage those who are recognizing sort of some of those coping strategies and realizing that they are really clawed?

Mike: 27:05

And just the encouragement to help them consider the character of God and what you're saying? What would you close out with then?

Kristin: 27:11

I think I that we've talked about this path, but I think I first would think through, what am I looking to it for? What do I want? What is my soul reaching for? Considering your own heart, are you longing for rest? Are you longing for respite?

Kristin: 27:29

Are you longing for a refuge? Are you longing for some sense of satisfaction? Name those things. Then I might pause and I might think, okay. Where do I see even where do I see the Lord's character even in this thing that has been functioning for that?

Kristin: 27:47

What a kind God that he's allowed me to hold on to this. What a patient God. What a merciful God. What a long suffering God. Right?

Kristin: 27:56

Who hasn't just come and kick this out from under me. How do I think about how he's been active even here? Because he's still active even if I haven't been pointed purposely pointed towards him. Yeah. Engage where that is and then start to speak your heart to him just like we talked about.

Kristin: 28:14

I think to think through how are you a better version of this, God? Where do I see this fill out far more beautifully in your covenantal love? Where do I am I longing for heaven? Right? Where am I longing for things that are breaking in from heaven and I'm holding on to here?

Kristin: 28:36

Let yourself stir on it, and then begin if there's one thing that hits you, sit with that. Just savor that like a hard candy. Just chew on that piece. Because the reality is if you're looking for if you're reaching for a coping strategy, you're probably tired and weary, and you're looking for something to hold you up. And allow the Lord to be allow the Lord to be gentle to you in that savor savor whatever word he whatever thing he's brought, whatever passage, right, you can hold on to.

Kristin: 29:12

And then watch as it fills out. I love where you pointed us in Psalm 19. Right? It There is a progression. And pointing yourself to the Lord, he will meet you there, and he will expect that as you savor his word and you bring your heart to him, that he will start to grow that.

Kristin: 29:31

But I would look for I also too, I would look for moments to practice it. So you talked about the guy who's driving home and wants to change his habits when he gets home. Find one place where you can start to grow that awareness this is where my heart pulls towards this. Something that makes sense, not as soon as I get home and then I have to make dinner for the kids. Yeah.

Kristin: 29:55

Like, the throes of the evening routine. Something where you can actually engage it and just begin practicing it. And I again, I expect that the Lord will will flourish that as you meet with him. And you'll be hearing you'll your sermons will start to add things. Your bible reading will start to add things to it to find rest in him.

Mike: 30:18

Yeah, that's really good. Thank you, Kristen. I appreciate it. And I hope for those of you who have recognized just maybe some of the coping strategies. As believers, we all struggle with these things.

Mike: 30:29

And so Kristen, thank you just for that wisdom and that. And for those of you listening again, anything that you'd like us to talk about topically, you can email us at topicsspeakthetruth dot org. Thank you for listening. We'll see you guys next time.