Mike: 00:00

Hello. Hello. Hello, speakers of truth. I wanted to take a moment to let you know that there is still time to register for our annual ABC Called to Council Conference happening May in Fort Worth, Texas at Doxology Bible Church. In this year's encouraging conference theme, If God is for Us from Romans chapter eight with our pre conference theme Counseling Through God's Attributes.

Mike: 00:22

In this year's plenary teachers are Paul Tripp, Jeremy Pierre, Jeremy Lelik, and John Henderson. And we're really excited about this year's track options as well. We've got mental health, which will be biblically unpacking diagnoses like OCD, schizophrenia, gender identity, and many more. Our other track will be trauma through eight sessions. The track teachers will equip counselors with a basic level for perceiving, thinking, and responding to the experience of trauma.

Mike: 00:49

You can check out more information at the website. Other tracks like Counseling Children and Teens, Fundamentals of Biblical Counseling, Common Sexual Issues, and for our pastors and church leaders, have a track just for you, which will be pastors and church leadership, helping equip you in three different levels, the personal level, the ministry level, and then effective leadership. And our other tracks include understanding emotions like shame, guilt, and regret, and our eighth track, spiritual abuse. You can register now at www.calledtocounsel.comforward slash register. If you can't make it in person, no worries.

Mike: 01:29

We will be live streaming the conference, all the plenary sessions, and worship. And this year's live streaming track will be understanding emotions, guilt, shame, and regret. We'll see you there. Welcome to speak the truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual in local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello.

Mike: 02:00

Hello. Hello. We are back in studio except the studio has moved. We are currently in Salem Salem Heights Church at the Made to Minister Conference twenty twenty five. And, before we hit the record button, I was talking with our special guest who I will introduce here in just a moment.

Mike: 02:18

At any rate, realizing that in 2019, when Speak the Truth started, we actually just a few episodes in, I was able to bring all my equipment here and record. I think I was, like, in a storage facility somewhere.

Angi: 02:30

I don't know.

Mike: 02:31

It was like there was a lot of stuff going on at the time when we came, but that's six years ago. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. As you guys can tell, I don't have Shauna or Jeremy with me.

Mike: 02:41

At any rate, I am joined with some special guests. They've been we'll get into it here in just a moment, but I'm joined with Aaron and Angie Green. How are y'all?

Aaron: 02:49

We're doing well. Fantastic. Be here.

Mike: 02:51

Yeah. I'm glad you guys are here with us. And and thank you for all the feedback over the years about the podcast and the encouragement that's been helpful. And now you guys are able to be here, and we're gonna talk about marriage. And with the breakout session, you guys are gonna be in at the Made to Minister Conference.

Mike: 03:07

That's really what we're gonna talk about. But before we jump into basically some of their track stuff relating to marriage, I wanna have you guys get to know them a little bit, and then they can share a little bit considering that they've been marriage counselors for fifteen years. So we wanna spend some time getting to know them a little bit and just the things that they've learned. Because, again, to our listeners, you pastors, elders, church leaders out there, volunteers who are, again, wanting to figure out just different ways that you can serve. And, hopefully, this will be a testament to just different ways that the Lord has equipped his people to serve his church.

Mike: 03:39

Yeah. So with that, with no further ado, Aaron and Angie, would you guys like to share a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your marriage considering you guys have been counselors for fifteen years?

Angi: 03:50

We met in college. I guess, we in May, we we will have been married thirty one years.

Mike: 03:55

Wow.

Angi: 03:56

Met in college here in Salem and went right after our wedding, moved away to Tennessee and so spent the first three years of our marriage away.

Mike: 04:04

Where in Tennessee?

Angi: 04:04

Elizabethton, a little tiny corner by Bristol, that's Bristol Motor Speedway. If you're a NASCAR fan. It's really close there.

Mike: 04:11

So are there mountains in view?

Aaron: 04:12

Yes. Yeah. Northeast. Okay.

Angi: 04:14

Looks a lot like Oregon.

Mike: 04:15

Okay.

Aaron: 04:15

Yeah. Looks a

Angi: 04:16

lot like Oregon. And spent the first three years of marriage away from our families, but really felt like that was a really growing time for us and then came back. We have three adult children. Our oldest is 25, and we have a 24 year old and a 22 year old. And so we're learning how to navigate that part of parenting and life.

Aaron: 04:34

So after Tennessee, three years of marriage, we came back and got plugged in here to Salem Heights Church. And we're just looking for opportunity to serve and got plugged into the junior high ministry. Began to serve there really before we had started having kids. Walking with junior hires, and then we helped start a college age ministry. And that naturally led to opportunities for premarital counseling because have young couples that would Yeah.

Aaron: 05:02

Meet, fall in love. And Yeah. And so we did our first premarital counseling over twenty years ago. And naturally from that, it led to opportunities for marriage counseling, the the natural next step. And so we've been plugged into that formally and informally for a lot of years.

Mike: 05:22

That's really cool. Just to go back to the age of the kids because we've got a 23 year old, and we've got an 18 year old. And our 23 year old actually, the Lord was super kind to me. I was able to officiate his wedding. That was pretty awesome, but we're actually gonna be grandparents.

Mike: 05:37

I saw that. That's exciting. Yeah. Next month, Sean and I will officially be referred to as Oma and Opa. Okay.

Mike: 05:44

So that's what we're going with. You know, in Texas

Angi: 05:46

parents' names. Yeah.

Mike: 05:47

Yeah. And in Texas, there's some pretty wonky names. Like, I I don't know if it's a southern thing because I'm originally from Michigan. I've been in Texas for, what, twenty two years now or something like that. Yeah.

Mike: 05:56

So just the age of kids and just the dynamic shift there with the kids, it does change. So that's so are they married and you guys

Angi: 06:04

Our oldest is married, and he lives here in town with his wife. Mhmm. And then our daughter, she lives in Phoenix. And then we have our youngest son is a senior at Oregon State.

Aaron: 06:14

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron: 06:16

So we are enjoying the empty nest season and learning what parenting looks like in the adult ish phase of raising kids.

Mike: 06:24

Yeah. Yeah. So how often do you talk to the kids?

Aaron: 06:27

Every week we have conversations.

Mike: 06:29

Yeah. Yeah. Y'all y'all do a lot of FaceTime. Is it like audio calls or like actual FaceTime or just

Angi: 06:35

With our daughter is is FaceTime so we can get to see our

Mike: 06:38

other son. He's like tell us no. Hey. Yeah.

Angi: 06:41

And then Parker and Molly, our oldest are here, and so we attend church together.

Mike: 06:45

Yeah. That's a little different. Cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: 06:47

That's awesome. Sweet. Over the years, though, to your point of just being able to just naturally take on some of these pieces. But at what point did you realize, man, I really wanna give significant time? Because the reality is, like, we all know in church, like, there's different areas to serve, and these aren't typical areas to serve.

Mike: 07:05

Yeah. Yeah. So what was it that set you guys to that point where and this is what I I wanna devote our like a ministry to. Right?

Aaron: 07:14

Yeah. How did that happen? I think some of it came out of just learning to to really disciple with with young people and our heart to walk alongside and encourage them. And so naturally with young people, then the opportunity to, to visit and encourage and walk alongside parents as they're working through different things. Yeah.

Aaron: 07:33

And so oftentimes, especially early on, it would just be a phone call. Hey, we're working through this. Maybe could we get some help or get your perspective? That was just discipleship conversations. And we saw through the years, a greater need maybe for something a little more formal.

Angi: 07:52

And I was just gonna say, they there just were opportunities that presented themselves.

Aaron: 07:57

Yeah.

Angi: 07:57

And that came to us, like you said, like people or or someone would ask, could you meet with this student or and we went with that. Yeah.

Mike: 08:06

So how did you guys and because I think maybe one of the questions is I'm sitting here hearing y'all story a little bit wondering, at what point did you realize, okay, we've done a little bit of marriage counseling or we've met with them. We've done this book or that book. Like, at what point you're like, we need to focus on certification and we need to get a little more equipped. Mhmm. How long was it before you guys were like, we needed to do that?

Angi: 08:28

I think just the when the opportunity presented itself. And and Emily introduced us to ABC and that kind of certification. But even before that, we did different audited some different biblical counseling courses, say, the master's university. Yeah. I can't remember.

Angi: 08:44

There was, like, three or four different biblical counseling kind of curriculums that we worked through to help us. And really that was from the encouragement from our pastors.

Mike: 08:53

Yeah.

Angi: 08:53

And a desire to to learn and grow in that. And then the equipped to counsel and then the ABC certification has been really helpful with individual counseling, but also then the marriages too.

Mike: 09:04

Yeah. So were you guys because at this point, and speaking of Emily Mhmm. Like, far does that go back? Was it, like, 02/2012 or February was it forever? Like, were you were you at the beginning, the genesis of biblical counseling at Salem Heights?

Angi: 09:19

Was interesting because it was our pastors and elders were getting excited about biblical counseling. And then Emily was pursuing her Master's in Biblical Counseling simultaneously, then they merged together. Emily was able to introduce us to ABC and say, Hey, look at this organization and what they do, and would that be a good fit for our certification and education for our counselors? They were happening at the same time. I don't know where the crossover was, but it just was interesting how that happened.

Angi: 09:48

Yeah, there was a few, while she was in school, there was a few other curriculums that a small group of us were working through to get us prepared.

Aaron: 09:56

Yeah. And for a lot of years, we we have a really consistent discipleship program here for Yep. Men and for women, for our youth. And so it really was born out of that as the natural next extension, the next step to walk with people working through different issues in life and issues in marriage.

Mike: 10:17

Yeah. Speaking of issues in marriage. So as far as y'all's track is concerned, your breakout session having to do with marriage conflict, disunity in marriage. So as far as your workshop, it's trying to provide more of a gospel centered strategy to help guide those couples. How do you guys get down beyond those levels to get to the actual gospel centered strategy of getting down to the heart of marriage conflict and struggles and challenges?

Aaron: 10:42

I think first, just coming alongside and and helping them identify what the real issue is. Oftentimes, we'll have couples come in and what stated on the intake is we we're just literally struggling to communicate. Probably the most common statement. When in reality is that they're probably really great communicators, but what comes out if the content of that communication is really ugly and it's harming the other person. It's damaging the marriage.

Aaron: 11:11

So walking with them to help peel that back a little bit and say, what's what's really underlying? What are the issues that are creating that communication struggle, the conflict? And sometimes that takes a little while to really understand. This may be the stated issue, but here are some things that are really going on. But from there, I think one of the hardest turns in the counseling is helping them see that god really does care about the intimate details.

Aaron: 11:43

They might be squabbling about something that they would say, why would god even care about that? And yet to really allow the hope of the gospel to invade every area of them individually, but especially their marriage, will begin to draw out what he desires to do in the midst of what they're wrestling with. I've heard. Good. Yeah.

Angi: 12:04

I was gonna say, I think it it takes time and patience, like you said, to draw out and to really listen well to to folks. I think our heart is to help them cooperate with what the holy spirit would want to do in their life, not tell them what to do or to give them a list of change these behaviors, like you said, root and fruit. We we do want different fruit to come out of them, but we want it because the Lord is producing something in them, not because they're just trying to change and trying different different strategies. And so really our heart for the gospel to be able to share the gospel. And sometimes people are like, what does this have to do with the conflict?

Mike: 12:43

A lot. Yes.

Angi: 12:45

I think having the opportunity to just really explore the fact that the gospel is for salvation and it does when when we believe the gospel, it it does provide us that inheritance, that home in heaven and eternity some someday. But to help people understand that that the gospel should impact every single day of their life. And to help them make connections to what God has afforded to them in the gospel, how does that make a difference today? And that's really what we are hoping to do. And will we get to some try these things or maybe some some practical tools and exercises to try?

Angi: 13:24

We'll get to those. But if we start there, we're starting in the wrong place. We're starting with the fruit, and and it really has to be at the the heart level.

Mike: 13:32

Yeah. That's really good. It goes back to that analogy that Jesus uses in the parable when he uses Luke six forty three through 45. And what's interesting about when he's given that parable to that point is we're focusing on the fruit, the the behaviors, behavioral modification. And when you guys were talking about when they come in with the intake form, I'm sitting over here.

Mike: 13:51

They can't see this, but I'm sitting over here, like, putting my hand up. Yep. That's it. That is the most dominant response as why they're coming in. They just want practical helps not realizing that that's not their problem.

Mike: 14:02

Yep. And that's what I love about what Jesus says there because he bookends that whole parable with out of the abundance of the heart, his mouth speaks. Yep. And realizing you think you have a communication problem, but Jesus turns that into a very poor argument. Yep.

Mike: 14:15

He's literally saying, no. You you're actually your communication is exactly right. That's the problem because it's it's revealing your heart. And what I love about that part of, like, marriage conflict, going back to your point, Angie, about the gospel is the transformation of the gospel that second Corinthians, it talks about five seventeen specifically, when it talks about being new creations in Christ, like, this new creation means we have new desires. There's there's a newness in us that is yet to be developed, hence, the discipleship piece.

Mike: 14:45

And I think that's where a lot of times in marriage, that particular part of it has been just truncated to a level where they they just haven't been able to connect those dots. Yeah. And I think, unfortunately, when they come into biblical counseling, they are wanting to experience of just really and and we don't say this to them right out of the gate because we're being patient with them. But it's like, you just really want to remove your in the inconveniences. You want to remove these things that that are inconvenient for you into your comforts and everything and not really exposing your desires.

Mike: 15:16

And so then all of a sudden, the theology of desire comes onto the table, and they're like, what is this? Yeah. I don't I don't think that's what's going on here. Actually, let's let's dive a little bit more into that. That's exactly what's going on here.

Mike: 15:27

So that's that's awesome. So how as far as what y'all have seen, what has been some of the responses after some of that transformative digging, so to speak? Because to your point, we're not trying to give opinions. We're not telling them what to do. Our heart and goal is to try to take them to god's word and show them and letting the holy spirit do the work.

Mike: 15:45

We're simply the instrument that's pointing them back to what's already in front of them. Yeah. So how how have you guys seen that with some of the responses when you see the light actually go on? Like, the illumination of their face changes. They realize that, woah, like, this is a gospel that I haven't realized.

Mike: 16:03

Have have you had any of those experiences? Anything that you all can recall?

Angi: 16:06

I'm thinking of a couple where they were they were they were actually separated and they were, like, really close to divorce and were coming last ditch. And that that is one thing I I wish would change is that that people would come a little sooner, come and ask for help, and not not wait till the

Aaron: 16:25

Yeah.

Angi: 16:26

Look. Because then we're like, we're on.

Aaron: 16:27

Look.

Angi: 16:28

But this couple came, and they they wanted help. They wanted to do what god wanted them to do. And so as we presented scripture, the you're just what hap like you said, happened. Their their countenance changed. Their facial expressions towards each other changed even in the room.

Angi: 16:46

And they began to take in the truth and really think about, okay, how does this apply to my life? Where am I contributing to the conflict? What are my desires? What am I holding? What's become an idol that I'm not willing to let go of?

Angi: 17:00

And they were willing to do the hard work that comes with that self evaluation. It wasn't easy. And today they still struggle. They come back to us and say, hey, we need a little bit help with this. We got to see just upfront God doing the work.

Angi: 17:16

We presented the truth and the scripture, and God just tenderized their heart to live out and to understand how he actually had given them everything they needed for life and godliness for that day, and they could trust him. And we we we love to look back on that couple because it was also in a season where we had a run of couples who didn't wanna listen.

Aaron: 17:37

There was

Angi: 17:37

Who didn't wanna yield.

Aaron: 17:39

Yeah. There was three or four in a row. Yeah. I think they came because it was it was the last ditch. And they put the stamp of, okay, we went to counseling.

Aaron: 17:48

But they they had no desire to actually really see things. They met once or twice. And then literally, there was three or four to divorce, separation. And and we actually looked at each other. We had a a four month stretch, and it's like, we're really not very good at this.

Aaron: 18:07

Maybe we should have something else.

Mike: 18:08

Is it that's I think every counselor goes through that at some point, and it's it's hard not to kinda, like, be tempted by that. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry not to cut you off. Yeah.

Aaron: 18:18

No. But it's just It's where we were. And Yeah. God provided that opportunity. And they both came with open hands just saying, we're really hurting, but we wanna try it God's way.

Aaron: 18:29

Mhmm. And it was just supernatural. See what God did.

Mike: 18:34

Yeah. That's that's really good because I that's why I love marriage counseling. And and to me, that's, I don't think there's at least topically speaking, I don't think there's a bigger point of counseling that demonstrates the reality of the gospel than in marriage counseling. Yeah. Especially for men.

Mike: 18:50

And it's like realizing that, hey. I know we pride ourselves in being men, but really, relationally, vertically speaking, we're we're the woman. Yeah. We have to submit to Christ. And there there's a there's a there's a dynamic there that oftentimes we don't think of.

Mike: 19:04

We don't wanna think of it.

Aaron: 19:05

Yep. Yep.

Mike: 19:06

So I just I I I just I love marriage counseling. And in the in the session that you guys have, you explore the gospel and how it offers a framework for peace and then providing those practical tools to help resolve conflicts. You guys just as we wrap up here, what what are some some thoughts to our listeners? Just thinking on your your lesson later, what are some things that we could encourage our listeners with some of these tools?

Angi: 19:28

I think that maybe changing the mindset from conflict resolution to pursuing peace. Like, conflict resolution, you're moving away from something. But if you're moving away from something, you have to be moving towards something. So that that's even like the put off, put on principle. Yep.

Angi: 19:47

That we find in scripture in a lot of place. It's not enough to put off what is sinful. We have to put on then what is good and right and holy. And so that's the idea behind the pursuing peace is that yes, it is part of conflict resolution, but we're actually moving towards something that God intended. And it comes directly from our relationship with God.

Angi: 20:09

We have peace with him. And so because we have peace with him through the gospel, we actually can pursue peace in all of our relationships. We can live out the gospel daily and have that impact the things that we do or don't do.

Aaron: 20:22

Yeah. And I think about Paul's list of the fruit of the spirit. And oftentimes when we start, we'll highlight the difference between

Mike: 20:30

Yeah.

Aaron: 20:30

What the flesh produces and what the and and then ask the couple, which of those would be a home that would be sweeter to come home to? Obviously, the one that is defined by the fruit of the spirit. He's provided all of that for us to live out. And then Paul highlights in in Ephesians five that when a husband will live out his calling the way God has designed him to and the wife will do the same, it puts on display the power of what he did to redeem the bride. And and it's a bright, bright light in a dark world.

Aaron: 21:04

And he's given all the tools to be able to yield to that and produce that in in a marriage. It's will we surrender to it?

Mike: 21:12

Yeah. That's really good. And I like your point, Angie, about the piece too, because I think the difficult work in marriage counseling is persuading through scripture that the peace that they're after, which they think is the satisfaction of their desires, is actually what's causing the conflict versus pursuing the peace that is already theirs in the Lord. But it's also putting off, putting on to your point that they don't realize that there's no neutrality in the heart. Mhmm.

Mike: 21:41

That you can't just simply stop doing something. You might be able to temporarily. Yeah. But long term, it doesn't have the transformative work because you didn't bring in something that's stronger than the thing that you were pursuing. And so if your pursuit of peace is stronger than your sort of contention to have what I want when I want it type of thing.

Mike: 21:59

And I just think, unfortunately, most people are never really confronted Yeah. With that reality of selfishness in all of us, even as believers. And so I think that's where just marriage counseling, especially like in the church is fundamentally important to have just as far as whether it's pastoral ministry or a care ministry in the church, whatever that looks like, but to have because when Sean and I started out, which is through the Lord's providence and everything is what led us to the the ministry that he gave us. But when we were struggling, we went to our church. They didn't have anything for us.

Mike: 22:30

They they referred us out. And I just remember that being very sad because that it of course, at the time as a young believer, that was really growing in my faith. And then in my marriage, Sean and I have shared our testimony on the podcast several times. But just going back to this point of how many marriages that are in the churches where the churches aren't investing in those marriages, not just reactively, but proactively. Yep.

Mike: 22:54

And so I think sometimes, like even with counseling, it's reactive ministry, and then rarely do we have proactive ministry. So there's a lot to consider with marriage ministry, and there's a lot to consider as far as just the development and the intentionality of being able to to equip the saints for the work of ministry, speaking of Ephesians. Yeah. So any any concluding thoughts before before we wrap up?

Angi: 23:14

I just you made me think of something that couples, they want peace, but their idea of peace is, it might not be what scripture says peace is. Peace for them might be that things are comfortable or they're not fighting. They're just doing their own thing. And that's not the peace that God calls us to. And that that peace actually doesn't produce what they're hoping for.

Angi: 23:38

And so helping them understand what is peace and harmony from God's perspective. Yeah. And and how do you pursue that? I think that's important.

Mike: 23:46

We also have to acknowledge that a lot of times people are coming and their hearts aren't prepared for really what they're asking for. To your point, Angie, they want a solution, but we know they want us to give them what they want versus what they need. Yeah. And we're trying to give them what they need as opposed to what they want, and they're not ready for what they need. And so for those of you who may feel a little discouraged, because maybe your your marriage average in terms of counseling is a little a little low, I would say that there's a reason why Jesus uses the parable about the four soils, or where the gospel has been presented to people.

Mike: 24:20

With two people in a marriage, they are concerned about the things of this world that's choking gospel, in their lives and in their hearts. Thank you guys so much for being with us. I'm looking forward to hanging out with you guys during the conference. Glad you were able to join us. And I'm looking forward to I won't be able to probably hear at least in person this lesson, but I'll be able to check it out later.

Mike: 24:43

So I look forward to that. So thank you guys. Appreciate it. Thank you guys for listening. And again, you can check us out.

Mike: 24:47

We have our YouTube channel hasn't gotten a lot of attention, but that's something in 2025, some of initiatives that we wanna we wanna grow. So I'll put that in the show notes for you guys. And, if you guys have any other topics, anything that you'd like for us to talk about, you can email us at topics that speak the truth. Thank you for listening. We'll see you guys next time.