Mike: 00:00

Hello. Hello. Hello, speakers of truth. I wanted to take a moment to let you know that there is still time to register for our annual ABC Called to Council Conference happening May in Fort Worth, Texas at Doxology Bible Church. In this year's encouraging conference theme, If God is for Us from Romans chapter eight with our pre conference theme Counseling Through God's Attributes.

Mike: 00:22

In this year's plenary teachers are Paul Tripp, Jeremy Pierre, Jeremy Lelik, and John Henderson. And we're really excited about this year's track options as well. We've got mental health, which will be biblically unpacking diagnoses like OCD, schizophrenia, gender identity, and many more. Our other track will be trauma through eight sessions. The track teachers will equip counselors with a basic level for perceiving, thinking, responding to the experience of trauma.

Mike: 00:49

You can check out more information at the website. Other tracks like Counseling Children and Teens, Fundamentals of Biblical Counseling, Common Sexual Issues, and for our pastors and church leaders, have a track just for you, which will be pastors and church leadership, helping equip you in three different levels, the personal level, the ministry level, and then effective leadership. And our other tracks include understanding emotions like shame, guilt, and regret, and our eighth track, spiritual abuse. You can register now at www.calledtocounsel.com/register. If you can't make it in person, no worries.

Mike: 01:29

We will be live streaming the conference, all the plenary sessions, and worship. And this year's live streaming track will be understanding emotions, guilt, shame, and regret. We'll see you there. Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello.

Mike: 02:06

Hello. Hello.

Shauna: 02:07

Yo. Yo. Yo.

Mike: 02:08

What's up? Hey. There's what's up? Alright. We officially got our intros down for the three of us.

Mike: 02:15

Alright. We're in in our last episode for the miniseries on who is ABC. In our last episode here, we're gonna focus on the hope of ABC. If you haven't listened to the previous podcast, I would encourage you to go listen to the first one, which was the history where Jeremy just laid out everything. And, the second one we just got done with prior to this is the heart of ABC.

Mike: 02:37

So I would encourage you to go back and listen to those. We're gonna focus on this episode in the hope of ABC, and we're really going to focus on and this is where we'll open it up, guys. But what is ABC's hope for the future of biblical counseling? And then second to that is where do we see ABC in the next five to ten, twenty years?

Jeremy: 02:55

It's great. One of one of the things that come to mind for me in terms of the hope for our future is that the the beauty and the message of biblical counseling would continue to permeate way outside the circles where biblical counseling has typically resided, that that reformed world, which has been a wonderful thing, and it's been very rich. But ABC, we have created our curriculum in such a way that it can go beyond a certain denomination. And so my hope is that we just continue to see circles that have not been touched with this message. I did a talk in Fort Worth a couple of Sundays ago to a church staff on biblical counseling.

Jeremy: 03:37

And I said, how many of you guys have ever heard of Paul Tripp? And this is a very big church in Fort Worth. Not a single person had ever heard of Paul David Tripp. And so for the first time, I got to talk to them about biblical counseling within the church, and they it was like a sponge. And they just soaked it in and and loved it, and it it's it's created a new relationship.

Jeremy: 04:00

But my hope for our future is that we just continue to see things like that, not only in The US, but expanding all around the world.

Mike: 04:07

That's really good because I think to that point, you mentioned reformed and, obviously, sit satiriologically, the equipped council curriculum is reformed. Yeah. It is. Completely monergistic in that sense.

Jeremy: 04:17

Now no one would really pick that up. Mm-mm. No. James has John has written it so amazingly Mhmm. That any Christian's gonna pick it up and resonate.

Mike: 04:25

And I and I think you pointed out how that's distinctive, and I and I would say it's distinctive in the way that it brings to more denominationally speaking, it brings a level of God's sovereignty, a theology of suffering, sort of these nuances within that that I think are characteristic of reformed theology that we get to bring into, but we don't have the stamp reformed on

Jeremy: 04:48

it. No.

Mike: 04:49

But to that point, as a training center, and Shauna mentioned in the last episode that there's upwards of sixty, seventy training centers now. And some of these churches that are training centers wouldn't classify themselves as reformed churches Right. But they preach the gospel. Yes. And and so I think that's a huge distinctive of ABC is that we're taking reformed theology, and I would argue some of the strong distinctives of reformed theology and giving it as it relates to the practical theology of the care of the body in the local church context.

Jeremy: 05:18

Yes. I I actually there's one of our students that just completed equipped to counsel level one, and she was blown away by the material. Like, it's having her think in ways she's never thought of before. Mhmm. And it was very interesting because in the midst of that, there was a transition in pastors, and the new pastor is reformed.

Jeremy: 05:38

And he's bringing a lot of that from the pulpit. Although it is Yeah. It's rooted in a reformed tradition. It's written. It's scripture.

Jeremy: 05:47

We're not pushing Calvinism. We're pushing How to care. The holy bible. Mhmm. And how it translates to caring for the soul.

Jeremy: 05:55

Mhmm.

Mike: 05:55

Yeah. And I and, again, I think that's just a huge distinctive of ABC. Yes. So

Shauna: 05:59

One of my hopes for the future biblical counseling is and we and we do this, but it's more of an initiative for the biblical counseling coalition who ABC has partners with. But just the thought of unity, they have a global summit that's coming up this year that everyone across the globe is coming to attend to specifically talk about biblical counseling and how we can link arms and and encourage each other in the work of the ministry. And so we have people who are coming to speak from a lot of different countries. And I I just think it's important that, obviously, as the first episode, we share the history of just how far we've come, but there still is a lot of terminologies we needed to find. What does that look like for biblical counseling?

Shauna: 06:37

There's still some conversations that we need to push into, but also just still being true and and being anchored to the word as we move forward. But for me, I just I I just really hope that we continue to grow in unity towards one another and the conversations that we have to have as we continue to help biblical counseling move forward. Obviously, the unified aspect of just how is the states encouraging those other countries across the globe, and how are we pushing into that in in different means, right, whether it's resources, finances, all that type of stuff. And so I think that would be really awesome just to see how biblical counseling grows universally and globally. Right?

Mike: 07:14

Yeah. That's really good. I the last couple years, I went to Zimbabwe. I'm not going this year, unfortunately. But the last couple years, being able to take equip to council to I was in Zimbabwe in Boluwaiya, which is the second largest city in

Shauna: 07:27

And teach it there.

Mike: 07:28

Yeah. Yeah. And so that's been awesome. But but I think in moving through some of this, Sean, like you mentioned, is how does the things that you mentioned play into some of these initiatives over the next five years?

Shauna: 07:40

So that's a good question. Actually, transition because it was probably about a year or two years ago, Jeremy and I, he helped step into the leadership aspect of ABC and managing the team and helping us move forward there. So I could step into a much needed role for how how do we how do we look at special projects for the ministry and creating resources and realizing that God just has given me vision and us as we collaborate together, just we see gaps out there of certain things. And we obviously see how vital equipped to counsel is. And so how do we and it's a full time job.

Shauna: 08:12

Right? And so how can I just tap into this area of bringing more counseling resources and filling the gaps there? But one of that is from the global aspect of getting the equipped to counsel translated into other languages. And it's been an initiative that ABC, I think, has had for a long time. John has actually always had open hands with the material and allowed us to seek those things out or as they come to us.

Shauna: 08:34

So that's one of the initiatives. So we hope to see in the next five years, Jeremy and the team want to financially invest in that. That's a financial investment, obviously, as well and getting the right people to do it because when you have the translation, you gotta make sure that they still stay true to what you're communicating. Yes. That right?

Shauna: 08:49

And and that's actually a way that really the listeners in our churches can get involved too in partnering with us is helping support us in that endeavor because that would be wouldn't that be amazing in five years to see Equip to Council in in other languages and being used in these other countries?

Jeremy: 09:04

Be wonderful.

Shauna: 09:05

Huge initiative. So, yeah, so that would be one. The other one when just resources in general is just continuing to create new things. We're, I think, on our sixth year of the counsel through books. That was an idea that I came to Jeremy, and he's, yes.

Shauna: 09:19

Run with it. And so it was an effort of getting things created of helping our new counselors counsel scripture. But also part of that initiative was was working with partners out there. We we created the book in a way that the author has the name on what they submitted. We have their website on there because we wanted counselors to be able to say, hey, these are our trusted people that we believe in that we want you to also connect to their website.

Shauna: 09:43

But really, the book is designed to help them say, hey, how to use this scripture in counseling? What are some after session assignments that you would give them as far as growth work? And that's been really cool to see how that's we started out with counsel through the Psalms, and now we have Proverbs, Romans, old old old testament narratives, new testament scriptures, and then our newest one that we're launching this year, which I just got the hard copy, is counseling through god's attributes, which is really cool. Then we've also partnered with Bob Kellerman, Brad Hambrick, and we've created some unique resources that you can purchase there of counseling commentary, and then Bob Kellerman helping us divine two biblical counseling words. But we also have other resources that are in work that we're working with some authors to develop some resources that will be good tools for our counselors to use in the counseling ministry.

Shauna: 10:29

And then lastly, I've gotta say a plug because I know people are asking, but it's taking longer than I hoped, but we are working on Equip to Counsel level three. So our level three with our ABC certification is focused on specialization. So that's when, hey, now you got your level one, you have the knowledge of counseling. Level two, now you have your supervision and you've done your theology and counseling exam. And now level three is for those people who are like, man, God keeps bringing me people who are struggling with eating disorders.

Shauna: 10:58

How do I take an equip to counsel, which is another seven month plus process, and hone in on that specific topic. And so we have authors that are out there that are specifically writing us our level three equip to counsel with John obviously being the general editor of that.

Mike: 11:14

So I just it is

Shauna: 11:15

Hopefully, that will be done in five years. That's why I'm saying it here so

Mike: 11:18

I could try

Shauna: 11:19

to help help hold me account up.

Mike: 11:20

Yeah. Y'all heard it. Y'all heard it. Yeah. But but I think I appreciate you sharing some of those initiatives, Shauna, because, again, I think that just continues to point out the distinctive nature of ABC and how collaborative we are.

Mike: 11:31

Mhmm. That we're not we're like, we're all familiar with the the kingdom minded, sort of language that we use, but we can legitimately say that. Mhmm. Yes. Yeah.

Mike: 11:42

We can legitimately say that, like, we partner with others because we we are very much on a kingdom agenda, kingdom work, going and moving beyond our circle and partnering with others for the sake of the gospel, which kinda goes to another question as far as how does ABC plan to continue equipping the next generation of biblical counseling? And then also in that next generation of biblical counseling equipping, how does ABC work to contribute the broader mission of gospel centered discipleship?

Jeremy: 12:10

It's very exciting in terms of the the next generation. One of the highlights of our conference is we're just seeing a lot of young people coming in who are getting a taste of biblical counseling the way that we do it through Equip to Counsel. And so we just my hope is that we just continue, as Shauna just said, in the next five years, complete this level three so that we we have not only this foundational piece in level one, but we're able in the next generation to have very specific topics to equip people at an even deeper level. That's something that I'm definitely excited Mhmm.

Shauna: 12:45

I would probably add when I first started with ABC, the majority of the conversations was our adult ministries of how are we equipping those in their call to care, how are we building counseling ministries that help in that formalized setting. But in the last two or three years, when I got alerted to how a lot of professional counselors were only able to see 18 and up. And even in that, there was sometimes a two to three month waiting period. And, really, when it came to children counseling children, play therapy was really an only option. And that really fired me up to start having conversations with churches a few years ago of, wait a minute.

Shauna: 13:22

Like, when we're talking about certification, how are we specifically seeing the people who are called to the children's ministry and to the student ministry that isn't just a Sunday experience, but actually saying we would love to equip you to be able to better care for them in the age that they're in. So that way, even when we're counseling families and it's time for the kids to obviously get care and intentional conversation, that the whole body is equipped to care for the whole family. And when you even think, like, student camp, younger generation of just being very churches being very intentional to have people who are equipped to join settings like that because topics are coming up. Same sex attraction is happening at camp. Suicide conversations are coming into light.

Shauna: 14:07

Like, just hard emotional drama between some of the students. And you want the churches to be equipped to be able to help counsel the younger generation. But then as we hold them to that higher standard of helping them, hopefully, as they grow into it, that might be something that they want to invest in. I think the youngest person we certified, Michael, through truth renewed was 18. And Savannah was just a young student.

Shauna: 14:33

We were thinking someone this young, could they actually become certified?

Mike: 14:36

Yeah. She went to Baylor after

Jeremy: 14:38

that.

Shauna: 14:38

But here's the thing is, like, when you when you when the Lord brings you someone that you that they're they're more intelligent and and understand scripture than, you know, some of the 30 year olds that you're meeting, Like, invest in them, right? And so, I think equipped to counsel is something that can be understood by the younger generation and and as we partner with seminaries and we get maybe some of these young adult students to help them say, hey, you're getting your education but what's that gap that when you come back to the church, how are you gonna actually implement some of that like that? And you can become a trainer through the Equip to Council. Right? You you get certified, and then you can take the Equip to Council back to your church and actually help join the journey in equipping others.

Shauna: 15:18

So

Mike: 15:19

Yeah. That's really good. I and I think that kinda plays into that that last question I just mentioned about gospel centered discipleship. And, Jeremy, your last point on just the specialization in our levels at ABC where it it's all gospel centered, but there's nuances. Right?

Mike: 15:33

And so somebody who might be struggling with addiction or somebody who might be struggling with a a level of anxiety that maybe people in the church feel it's beyond their scope of care. But the reality is showing through these specialized areas how the gospel fits into those particular areas

Jeremy: 15:51

Yes.

Mike: 15:52

Is huge. And I think this is going back to the ultimate question of the hope is where we see the future of ABC. And, again, really culminating our heart as well as the history of really what we'd like to see is the church realizing how much of a gospel gap there is, not just in their public ministry of the word and their pulpit ministry, but the personal ministry of the word, the silos that exist in their churches. And that's not an indictment against the church, or that's not judging or attacking the pastor or saying that they're not doing a good job or anything, but we just understand the nature of the world that we live in right now. And there's a huge, huge need for being able to bridge that gap between modern psychology and these psychological labels that matter of fact, one of our biggest podcasts right now that we recently released with Beth Clays when we were talking about narcissism.

Mike: 16:42

Like within thirty days, that had almost a thousand downloads. Wow. Because that's one of those cultural things that are happening. And the culture immediately picks up these cultural labels, these psychological labels, and the church, when it engages, as soon as they drop the psychological labels, like the church retreats. Whatever presence it has in that individual life, it immediately just like retreats because you drop that psychological label.

Mike: 17:07

That's a knowledge that I'm not familiar with. I'm not equipped for that. So takes away gospel opportunity. Yes. And so I I think for for us and Jeremy, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Mike: 17:18

With some of this stuff, as we continue to move forward in last episode, Shauna was pointing out in in our conference where we've got LPCs and this this sort of thing happening where we're we're trying to have these conversations of trying to equip the church to not retreat from these conversations, to to not abdicate that responsibility that has been given as far as shepherding is concerned, that going back to what you were saying, Jeremy, about the great commission where John, you know, so beautifully puts that in the equipped council curriculum in the great commission that that indicative statement, that declaration that Jesus makes that all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me, therefore, go. Okay? In the going, as the culture changes and there's new shifts, new this, new that, whatever's going on, the gospel never changes.

Jeremy: 18:02

That's

Mike: 18:02

right. The reality of human nature, so, you know, having an understanding of anthropology, all of these theological principles that we walk around with find their opportunity in this level of ministry. Yes. Any thoughts on that?

Jeremy: 18:16

Yeah. Speaking specifically, the gospel centered piece. When we say gospel centered, ultimately, we are saying that we want to make sure that we are esteeming the finished work of Jesus Christ upon the cross plus nothing and the implications of that work on something like narcissism. That's a label. I'm not counseling a narcissist.

Jeremy: 18:39

I'm counseling a person who struggles maybe with some personality tendencies that lean in the direction of profound self centeredness. Ultimately, I think we all are somewhere on the spectrum of narcissism from time to time.

Mike: 18:51

What do we call it theologically? Sin.

Jeremy: 18:53

Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And the idea of gospel centered, there's power in the gospel. There's the holy spirit is powerful.

Jeremy: 19:01

He can transform. And when you read the secular literature on borderline personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder, it's a very hopeless case. Those personality disorders, quote, are the most powerful thing in that person's being. But when we're talking to a Christian who struggles with these things, the most powerful thing the most powerful aspect of that person is the holy spirit who resides within them. And so gospel centered is got to be essential in everything we're doing.

Jeremy: 19:34

And when we say that, we're talking about a triune god who's interested in his people and who's interested in healing and who's interested in trans not only interested, but faithful to do it. Mhmm.

Mike: 19:45

Amen. And and what I love about that, which kinda goes back to the hope of ABC, is that we're moving forward apologetically about the Lord holds the knowledge.

Jeremy: 19:56

That's right.

Mike: 19:57

Modern psychology doesn't hold the knowledge. Epistemologically, it's revelatory. It's the work of the Holy Spirit, and we are fighting back against what the the culture is really perpetrating on people Yes. In its fallen nature. And and so ABC's systematic approach with Equip to Counsel curriculum, helping equip the church like it's a very systematic approach.

Mike: 20:21

Yes. And I just I I I love that ABC is seeing that. I would I would argue that it's it's very much prophetic in the sense of, like, the biblical realization that we have the gospel. The gospel changes the whole person going back to what we talked about in the history of ABC. It changes the whole person, and that's an approach that we will be relentless with.

Jeremy: 20:47

Yes. And in our in in our future, as far as hope, is that we never ever ever stray from that truth.

Mike: 20:53

Yeah. That's good. And so with that, as we wrap up this Wrap up. Yeah. I know.

Mike: 20:59

We're

Shauna: 20:59

just getting started.

Mike: 21:00

Right? It always feels that way. With this, we we want to because, obviously, we've we've shared a lot on these last three episodes and then specifically our hope for ABC in this episode. But wrapping up here, how can churches, counselors, and individuals get involved in supporting and advancing ABC's mission?

Shauna: 21:17

I as I hear you guys talking about that of of those that learning of what's the need in biblical counseling, I think one of the things is is just realizing churches need to develop a culture of care. And so we've we're we're trying to provide an avenue and a pathway for you to do that. What but just remembering, like, it's not just the formalized biblical counseling, but a culture of care in general. And one of the ways that you can just join us on that mission is if you believe that to be true, even if you're just one person in the church. I Michael, you and I were just one person in the church, and so God can do a mighty work through you.

Shauna: 21:51

And even if you feel alone right now and you're like, I get this, but no one else is really joining me in the conversation, just be faithful for that next step in your life to to be able to, hey, continue to get equipped, get training, continue to have those conversations and oppression into that way, and just allow God to work around you. And so that would just be my encouragement to that. Obviously, that financial aspect is always there as we seek to translate the equipped accounts on other translations and to get these other books written or just continuing to provide new resources and membership and stuff. If if your church or you can donate to the mission of ABC to help us to continue to move forward in that, you can find that obviously at ChristianCounseling.com, and that would obviously be a huge blessing.

Mike: 22:31

That's awesome. Jeremy, any final thoughts, brother?

Jeremy: 22:33

I've really enjoyed this series just reflecting on our history and our heart and then where we're hopefully heading. Mhmm. I just ask the people that are listening to just pray for our staff

Shauna: 22:44

Mhmm.

Jeremy: 22:45

That we always remain humble before the Lord, that we never allow ourselves to to think more highly of ourselves than we ought, but to always recognize no matter how much the Lord is blessing what we're doing, that we are mere servants of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that our hearts would just stay centered in a humble place, that we would not get distracted, but stay honed on what God has put in front of us and do it well for his glory.

Mike: 23:13

Yeah. That's good. Awesome. Guys, thank you for listening. I hope this was an encouragement for you to just again hear the history of ABC, the heart of ABC, the hope of ABC.

Mike: 23:22

And, again, if you have any questions, follow-up questions with any of these episodes, you can email us at topics@speakthetruth.org. We look forward to next time. We'll see you guys later.

Shauna: 23:29

Bye.