Mike: 00:08

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.

Mike: 00:19

Hello. Hello. Hello. We are back in studio, and it's just Jeremy and I this morning. Yeah.

Mike: 00:23

Jeremy, how are we doing? Are we gonna do this without Shauna? Yeah. It feels a little off because we came in strong in 2025. We were excited that the three of us were in studio.

Mike: 00:32

Know it. And she is a little under the weather today, and she felt bad because she felt like she let down our special guests. And this is a special guest. She has been on our show a couple times. It is a beloved author and sister in Christ.

Mike: 00:48

We have Alyce Fitzpatrick on the podcast today, and we're gonna be going through her new book on love that was released earlier in 2025. Is that correct, Alyce?

Elyse: 00:57

Yes. Yes. Actually, it's just released. Yeah.

Mike: 01:02

Sweet. I feel like we get friend privilege here or something. Yes. That's good. At any rate, before we jump into the book, Elise, just for those out there who haven't heard or seen from you for a while, you've been in the biblical counseling world for quite some time, and you have been a prolific author.

Mike: 01:21

And I know early on when I started in biblical counseling, you very much were a part of my initial engagement with biblical counseling with Idols of the Heart, and so we're thankful for that. And you've written several books since then. And any new things you're working on? We know that you've got some updates as well on some new books or some previous books.

Elyse: 01:40

Thanks, Mike. Thanks. I'm sort of biblical counseling world adjacent at this point.

Mike: 01:46

Mhmm.

Elyse: 01:47

I wouldn't say that I'm right in the middle of it anymore. I ten or so years ago, we my daughter, Jessica Thompson, and I wrote a book entitled give them grace that has been redone. Chapters have been added. We refreshed a lot of it much of it. And so that has been rereleased.

Elyse: 02:09

Give them grace, leading your children to joy and freedom through the gospel. So that has now been rereleased through Revelle. Another book that I have that has just been rereleased, we redid it and updated it is the afternoon of life, finding purpose and joy in midlife, which quite obviously, I'm past. When I wrote it, I wasn't. And that's a P and R publication.

Elyse: 02:40

That is actually just now coming out. And then I have my latest book, Unloved, the rejected saints God calls beloved, and that's a Lexham Press release that will be out or is out now or will be in the next couple of days. And then I'm working on a project which I'm almost finished with, which honestly, guys, is the most exciting thing to me personally that I have ever done. I don't know what it's called yet. I think it's gonna be called the unexpected king.

Mike: 03:14

Mhmm.

Elyse: 03:15

It's a Lenten devotional that's going to walk through the gospels and the people who interacted with Jesus and what kind of king they were expecting and what kind of king he was. So just this morning, I got up at zero dark thirty and wrote for Holy Saturday. And tomorrow, I write Easter, and then I will have two more days after that. And that's not going to be out until Lent of twenty twenty six. I have no idea, like, what year this is.

Elyse: 03:59

I so this is 2025. So 2026 is when it's gonna come out. So that's what I'm doing. I also have the worthy, and that's something we do every week. And, and besides that, I take naps.

Mike: 04:15

So is the getting up early, is that the secret sauce to your prolific writing?

Elyse: 04:22

No. Actually not. But here's the situation, guys. I used to be able to start writing, and then maybe at regular time, 08:00 in the morning, nine o'clock in the morning, and then I would write all day.

Mike: 04:36

Really?

Elyse: 04:37

But by the end of the day, I had this massive headache, which it was just so terrible. So now I have with this project that I'm in, I I just I wake up really early. I write for four or five hours, and then I stop. And then I can't write anymore during the day. And that's probably I'm probably learning at this late date maybe to steward my body a little better than I used to Yeah.

Elyse: 05:10

Because I've written so much, and I think I kind of abused my body in doing that. And I'm trying to do a better job not to have a headache that makes me lay on the couch all day.

Mike: 05:23

Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that because I know a lot of people out there, pastors, especially biblical counselors and different things, like writing is a discipline that a lot of us are trying to grow in. So thank you for sharing that. I think that was helpful.

Mike: 05:36

Let's jump into Unloved, the rejected saints God calls beloved. And Alyce, just, obviously, like any writing project that you've had, what was the impetus or the cause that's you know what? I wanna write about this. I think that this would be a helpful a helpful submission to the saints and a good reminder to all of us. And as you alluded to in the introduction, the saints that have gone before us who had far less than what we did, and we've got so much at our fingertips to where we still have this wrestle arguably more than the saints before us because we have so much at our fingertips.

Elyse: 06:12

I think the thing that has for many years, but particularly in the last few years, really been troubling to me was that we have so many resources, really beautiful resources. We have the scripture. We've got books and commentaries and wonderful programs that tell us exactly what the Greek says, what the Hebrew says. We have all this. And yet, so many Christians think that still think that they're living in a meritocracy, that they're living in a kingdom in which a blessed life, however they want to define it, a blessed life is based on whether or not they're making the grade.

Elyse: 07:05

So let's call that a meritocracy. I earn merit from God by how by how I perform.

Mike: 07:11

Yeah.

Elyse: 07:12

Now among those people, they might there might be people who, like Miroslav Volf said, they think that god is the negotiator god, you know, or the gift giver god. So the negotiator god is the god maybe you just got bad news or you're afraid you're going to get bad news. And so you say to the negotiator, god, I I promise I will do x, y, and z if you get me out of this mess. So the negotiator, god. So I have to earn somehow God's blessing in this situation.

Elyse: 07:47

There are other people, probably not a lot of these kinds of people listen to your podcast, but there are other people that just sort of think that God is a a jolly old soul who, you know, like my husband, Phil, who loves to care for our grandchildren and who are all old now, and they don't need our care so much anymore, but love to give them pieces of candy. And so God is not a negotiator nor is he Santa or grandpa. God is a sovereign, gracious lord over the whole universe. And his perspective on what it means to have a blessed life is very different than ours. So what I wanted to do, which is basically my message for the last, I don't know, twenty years has pretty much been the same thing.

Elyse: 08:45

You are loved because of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And because you trust in that, and aside from that, aside from your faith in what Christ has done, you can't earn a thing. Now I know that your audience would say, yeah. Yes and amen to that. They would say, oh, yeah.

Elyse: 09:12

I don't earn my salvation by my works. But they probably, some of your listeners would say, yeah. Okay. So God says that he loves me, so he has to love me, but he probably doesn't really like me, and he's probably disappointed in me. And how would I tell if he liked me or was disappointed in me?

Elyse: 09:36

I could tell by the way my life looked. So if my kids were doing what they were supposed to be doing, if my marriage looked the way I thought it should look, if my church was growing, all the things, If my body was cooperating, then that would mean that God loves me. But, actually, if you look deeply at the lives of the people in scripture, that's not what you see. So many of the people in scripture who god loved and demonstrated love toward had lives that were really pretty much dumpster fires. Yeah.

Elyse: 10:19

And, guys, we've spent too long looking at the characters of the Bible and calling them heroes, the Bible heroes. Looked spent too too much time looking at the bible heroes, and then people walk away from that thinking, if I could just be like Abraham or if I could just be like David. And if if you say either one of those two things, you gotta wonder when. Should I be like Abraham when he when he pimped out his wife? I live in Southern California, so everybody says everything out here.

Elyse: 10:58

So should I be like Abraham then, or should I be like David when David, at the very least, sexually assaulted the wife of one of his servants? Mhmm. I there are no Bible heroes besides Jesus.

Mike: 11:14

Yes.

Elyse: 11:17

And so what I wanted to do was take a deep dive into the lives of these people, men and women, and say, okay. This is what their life looks like on the outside, but they were dearly loved by God. And so we have to get over this thought, which is this is the bottom line. Sorry. Took me forever to get here.

Elyse: 11:38

We have to get over the thought that if in fact Jesus loves me, my life is going to look like a Instagram post.

Mike: 11:47

Yeah. I like that. I like that quote that you put in there. Is it Instagrammable?

Elyse: 11:52

Yeah. Yeah. Our lives, Instagrammable, maybe in a bad way.

Mike: 11:59

I think that's what's helpful about what you're putting out there in the book is presenting the fact that, yeah, a lot of times we like to read Hebrews chapter 11 and see the heroes of the faith and realizing that in juxtaposition what James says about Elijah that he was a man just like us. And there is this reality of in scripture, it it presents the full nature of humanity when it's good and unbelievably bad.

Elyse: 12:28

Yes.

Mike: 12:29

You know? And so I appreciate just even the the particular characters that you chose to because that that's the thing is you just did a a very light swath of characters. You didn't there's a lot more characters that you could have chosen, but why these particular characters?

Elyse: 12:44

So I wanted to choose characters that are typically thought of as heroes. Abraham. Sarah, sort of. I mean, we're told as women to follow in the footsteps of Sarah, and I've heard her denigrated any number of times because she laughed. She didn't believe.

Elyse: 13:07

And she gave she gave Hagar, her slave, into Abraham's bed. So, I or, gosh, how many times have you heard people say we should be like David? Or as a woman being told, I should be like Ruth or I and what that looks like is this, or I should be like Naomi, or I should

Mike: 13:33

The courage of Esther. Yeah.

Elyse: 13:35

Yeah. So I have to I've been told over and over again to be like these people because if I would be like those people, then I would have a great life. Actually, if you look at their lives were not great, they were very hard. Many of them lived very hard and short ish lives. So they had they lived hard lives.

Elyse: 13:59

And then they did not walk in faith frequently. And so we have to get over this idea that somehow we're living in a meritocracy. We're going to earn a good life by how well we respond to God's commands. And in a sense, yeah, we do have a blessed life because we're in union with Christ, but it doesn't look, like, as you said, like that Instagrammable Mhmm. Beautiful little dessert with this artisan coffee.

Mike: 14:41

Yeah. No. I what I appreciate about that because I think at the street level, functionally, what that looks like in the church, meaning in small groups where around bible studies, we're we're very hesitant to be real about what's truly going on in our lives because of that narrative that arguably sort of not just permeates, but is suggesting, like, this is how you're supposed to lead out in the Christian life. So I I appreciate your boldness in just saying, actually, let's revisit some of these stories, and let me present what really is going on here. It's not the Instagramable moments that we choose to share in our lives.

Mike: 15:16

It's the Christian life is about the holistic reality of we are broken fallen people that are being redeemed, and it truly is his love. And as you said, it's too wonderful to believe.

Elyse: 15:29

Yeah. That's it. That's it. You said it so well. Our our lives are really messy.

Elyse: 15:36

Mhmm. And yet God is painting a beautiful tapestry.

Mike: 15:41

Elise, why do you think that so many Christians struggle with this idea that God really does love them?

Elyse: 15:47

Why do we struggle with the idea that God loves us? First of all, we've kind of been sold this bill of goods, which I've already said, which is if god actually loved me, then my life would look like this, x, whatever it is. We also struggle because we are so aware of our own failures. And I think for Christians who are really serious, tend to be introspective, then we see the ways in which we have failed to do what God has called us to do, which quite simply is love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength in your neighbor as yourself, which, of course, none of us has done. And so then we think God must not love me because I continue to fail to love my neighbor.

Elyse: 16:44

So we think again. See, and we're back to the meritocracy. We think that God's love is based upon our obedience to the law. And so when we who are serious about obedience and let us be serious about obedience, when we who are serious about obedience fail, then we think that must be tied in some way to god's love. But it's not, you see, because God's love is tied to Jesus Christ, and we are in him.

Elyse: 17:25

You see, why did Jesus have to live thirty three whatever years as a human, as a man, as being just like us in every way, of course, except for sin? Why did he have to do that? He had to do that so that we could have his perfect record of always having fulfilled the law. And so many Christians think that the gospel is only Jesus died for your sins. Now, Jeremy, the gospel is Jesus died for your sins as you well know, but it's not just that.

Elyse: 18:02

The gospel is also Jesus lived a perfect life in your place. And, therefore, therefore, you see, Jesus said, I always do the things that are pleasing to my father. So Jesus' life was pleasing to his father. Therefore, because I have been given his perfect record, I am pleasing to the father. Now if you say that to a group of Christians, you can say, father, I know I'm pleasing to you.

Elyse: 18:31

They're gonna get hives because because we really haven't been taught, so many of us, the whole gospel.

Mike: 18:42

Yes.

Elyse: 18:43

The whole thing. Yes. Absolutely. Jesus died for our sin. May he be praised forever.

Elyse: 18:49

But he also lived this perfect life so that God's love for me is not based upon my obedience, my getting my act together, my doing all the things, completing my list, whatever. God's obedient god's love for me is not based on that. God's love for me is based on the obedience of Jesus Christ, which I have his record now. Beautiful. So that's why they struggle.

Elyse: 19:22

Now be honest. I'll be upfront with you guys. That doesn't mean I never struggle because sometimes I think, yeah, Elise. You talk about the gospel at all and all the time, and here you are, and you can't even remember it. Okay.

Elyse: 19:36

So even on those days, Jeremy, even on those days, when I can't remember, Jesus remembers.

Mike: 19:44

Yeah. That's good. So does that kinda play into at least just kind of the last chapter of and yet? Your what you just articulated, the hope that we have, it's not just the blood that Jesus shed. It's the life that he lived on our behalf.

Mike: 20:00

And so all of those off days, he purchased that, and we have his life. And it actually should and could and will draw us to him. And that's that loving embrace of grace. Right? And just being helpful with that.

Mike: 20:14

With all of that, just to kinda wrap up and close out on just what you were trying to accomplish with this book, how would you encourage the readers, and what are you hoping that they would walk away with?

Elyse: 20:24

I'm hoping that the readers of this book would, first of all, recognize that much of the time, they feel like they are unloved. Just let's be honest. But then also come to understand that God's love for them is not based on them and that they are in fact beloved and that he holds them dearly. And listen. Here's the really wonderful news, guys.

Elyse: 20:50

X number of years ago, I don't know how many. I wrote a book entitled home, how heaven and the new earth will satisfy our deepest longings. And so when we finally get home this is gonna be a struggle till then, but when we finally get home, then we're not gonna ask anymore, am I loved?

Mike: 21:09

Yeah. Amen.

Elyse: 21:10

Yeah. So we'll know.

Mike: 21:11

Yeah.

Elyse: 21:12

And in the meantime, we have to be reminded. And so that's what this book will do.

Mike: 21:17

That's very encouraging. Well, thank you, Elise. Thank you for that contribution to encourage the saints and that helpful reminder to the body as oftentimes functional we forget. We definitely forget. And when we're especially we know when we're kinda living in that meritocracy is when we kinda start to experience a level of suffering, our hearts immediately begin to question and ask god why.

Mike: 21:40

What did I do to deserve this and that sort of thing. And just appreciate this balanced approach to just remind us that oftentimes we do feel unloved, but even going back and I'll even put home in the show notes as well because I think having that hope in us and being able to try to think through that and realize that actually gives us hope for when those moments of feeling unloved kinda take sort of arrest our hearts and just being able to look to the reality that one day, that moment when everything around us shows that not only are we loved, but we are more loved than we could ever imagine, and we will be with him eternally. So Yes. Capital h, Hope. Very beautiful.

Mike: 22:17

Very awesome. Thank you, Elise. We appreciate it. And, we look forward to you say you're working on another project. And so, hopefully, when is that gonna release in 2025, or what are you thinking?

Elyse: 22:26

No. I think probably the beginning of twenty twenty six.

Mike: 22:30

Okay. Yeah. So this time next year, looking forward to it. Yes.

Elyse: 22:34

Yes. That'll be lovely.

Mike: 22:36

Awesome. Great. Thank you, Elise. We appreciate it. We'll see you next time.

Elyse: 22:39

Thank you.