Michael: 00:08

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.

Shauna: 00:19

Yo, yo, yo.

Michael: 00:20

Oh, you beat me to the hello. Hello. Hello. We are continuing our miniseries on discipleship and counseling, cultivating spiritual rhythms in session. And last episode, we focused on a bible study method and getting into the word and our introduction, our first podcast.

Michael: 00:37

We also did that as well as just the the larger topic. This episode, we're going to be talking about praying the bible, leading counselees, and prayer rhythms. And so with that, we're gonna focus on prayer. Obviously, this is by far the probably the most difficult discipline that most people experience in their walk with Christ. What do you guys think?

Michael: 00:59

Yeah.

Jeremy: 01:00

I think I would agree with that.

Shauna: 01:01

Yeah. I mean, to the depth of what what we're probably gonna talk about in our encouragement and prayer. I know that a lot of people feel it's hard to study the Bible and read it, but oftentimes, people can can commit to that yearly plan and just kinda read it. Prayer, we find that people talk to the Lord or talk to him, but, like, in the depth of what we're talking about today might feel different.

Michael: 01:22

Yeah. That's good. And so, really, the idea is the role of prayer and spiritual growth. Again, going back to the point of the series is our counselees oftentimes struggle with these disciplines. And I've definitely, along those lines in working with counselees, having them pray out and they you know, most of them that I remember struggled to just, oh, I'm not a good prayer.

Michael: 01:46

I don't pray or, you know, the lord doesn't you know, it's it's like it's the way I sing too. It's like I don't sing out loud because my voice and I feel the same when I pray. Like, I get all these

Shauna: 01:56

I feel personally attacked at this moment. Oh my goodness. You are feisty with me today. Okay. You literally know I lip sync because I don't have a great voice.

Shauna: 02:10

So thank you. I mean, technically, I guess the listeners didn't know you were calling me out, but I had to let them know that.

Michael: 02:17

Proximity, like, I get your immediate you're talking about me.

Shauna: 02:20

No. But tell them about the example of you helping me pray. Like, this was early on in our faith, right, when we're back at the church, you know?

Michael: 02:27

Alright. So total transparency. Yeah. When I was saying that a moment ago, I was thinking about you, but I didn't wanna put you on the spot or

Shauna: 02:35

We might need counseling. I didn't. No. But but I did start out that way. Tell them how you encouraged me to pray out loud because I I did it.

Shauna: 02:43

I was scared to death when I first started community group and being involved in the church. And when it came time for prayer and group, I was like, Michael, no way I'm not praying out loud.

Michael: 02:55

Yeah. So for our listeners here and those of you who know Shauna personally, it was it was interesting because this was early on in our marriage where, you know, it it would be as, like, asking her to pray before we have lunch or dinner or whatever, and you did not like that. You did not like that at all. I remember that. And because

Shauna: 03:14

I just wanna bless the food to our body, and you, like, wanna talk about the whole day. Like, it's a twenty minute prayer.

Michael: 03:20

No. What I'm saying at that time, though, to your point, at that at that point, you you you it it really bothered you for me to ask you to pray. You it's almost like you were offended. Oh, really? Yeah.

Michael: 03:36

You were but to your point now, like, all these years later, I mean, I would argue that you're a prayer warrior, like, when you pray. I mean, you get into it. You call on the Lord. You you're praying specifically for people. You're praying for hearts.

Michael: 03:50

I mean, you're you're praying tremendously for people.

Shauna: 03:54

I think probably back then too, like, in early in our marriage, which I think we've probably shared this with our listeners, but I really struggle with anger. So that probably had a lot to do with just the hardness and of my heart, the attitude that I was wrestling with in general. And so prayer was at odds with that. So I'm sure people could possibly relate to that. But in community group, I didn't wanna pray out loud.

Shauna: 04:13

And, you know, when prayer circle time came, you kind of encouraged me eventually as I was growing in my faith to be like, just say one thing. You know, doesn't matter what it is. Just say one thing out loud, and we started there. And then, okay, now I'm kinda preparing a little bit, and then, okay, I'm just gonna let the Holy Spirit, you know, what what's what was shared that I can just say one thing about. And taking that pressure that the prayer had to look a particular way or I had to share a particular amount was very was nice for me to be able to start in that way.

Shauna: 04:41

And then, obviously, yeah, like, over the years now. What? Twenty plus years how it's grown.

Michael: 04:45

Yeah. So all that to say, it I mean, so you better believe it's happening in the counseling room.

Shauna: 04:50

Oh, yeah.

Michael: 04:51

People Sure. People are uncomfortable. They don't they're not confident in their prayer. They they're because they know that they don't pray very much. And so prayer is very much a difficult discipline to practice.

Shauna: 05:04

And Knowing that we can grow in it is really good.

Michael: 05:08

So

Shauna: 05:08

happy to be your personal testimony.

Michael: 05:10

Yes. Yeah. Yes. I'm glad you were. Because it it was it was testimonial in the sense that, like you pointed out, the heart of it at the beginning versus where you are now, and it just shows god's faithfulness.

Shauna: 05:22

Mhmm.

Michael: 05:23

You know, it shows his faithfulness in our insecurities and everything else that, we feel like we gotta sound a particular way or be a particular way. You know? The disciples even struggled with, you know, how to pray. I mean, that's literally, you know, the the majority of Matthew chapter six. It's Mhmm.

Michael: 05:39

Teaches how to pray. And that's exactly what we're gonna focus on on this episode is just the reality of prayer and spiritual growth and how prayer draws us to God. Mhmm. And it really is the first step in humbling ourselves before the Lord. There's there has to be that moment.

Michael: 05:54

And and to me, prayer is that Littmann's test, I think, that demonstrates sort of a hardheartedness with people, especially with our counselees where it's just, you know, asking the question, how often do you pray? Or let's say they're, you know, in here for marriage counseling and I'm talking to the husband. I'm like, well, how often do you pray for your wife? Not enough. You know, I get these these standard responses and these hard hearted responses that they don't do it.

Michael: 06:16

And so helping our counselees practice this together is huge. Any any thoughts on that, Jeremy?

Jeremy: 06:23

Yeah. You know, as counselors, we need to remember a person is sitting in front of us struggling with severe depression or struggling with severe anxiety or something like that or or an addiction. Their struggle in praying might not be just be insecurity. It may be the those kind of emotions can really create tunnel vision for us.

Michael: 06:43

Yeah.

Jeremy: 06:44

And we can forget there is a loving, attentive, faithful God who is ready to commune with us in our struggle. But instead, often people kinda implode upon themselves because the emotions are so intense and they forget. And so helping reminding them of that and teaching them that in the counseling session is huge. And then it I I think it's also important in with both of these, whether it's insecurity or whether it's just emotional burden. I think it's a good it's a good opportunity to remind them of what we read in Hebrews in Romans chapter eight, that the Holy Spirit we don't even know what to pray, how to pray, but the Holy Spirit here's how faithful God is to us.

Jeremy: 07:27

Yeah. The spirit of God himself is interceding for us Mhmm. With words that we can't even understand.

Michael: 07:33

I think scripture use groans

Jeremy: 07:35

Yes.

Michael: 07:36

And moanings.

Jeremy: 07:37

That's right.

Michael: 07:37

I did like I That's good. I appreciate what you shared, Jeremy, talking about emotions because that actually goes to to what I wanted to do in this episode. Because, again, a lot of times we talk about prayers. It's just one of those things where you just gotta start doing it. Yep.

Michael: 07:48

Right? You just start practicing it. And but, again, the transformative power of prayer because it changes us. It really does. That that was really the point of sharing Shauna's testimony with prayer is that she was changed through it.

Michael: 08:00

Right? I I really believe that. And then even in the Psalms and actually Psalm six, we wanna use this as an example.

Jeremy: 08:07

Let's let's just say that this is obviously a person that's struggling with maybe some sin and discouragement. And so we might have a counseling struggling with, let's let's just say, sin and discouragement. Yeah. And we want to just walk them through this Psalm and and model to them and include them in how to pray through a Psalm like Psalm six.

Michael: 08:30

Yeah. No. That's really good. And I I've got some some complimentary thoughts on that as well with you on that. And what I was gonna say a moment ago is that what we're gonna demonstrate in this podcast is really a practice, and it was one of the really good book.

Michael: 08:44

It's a it's a short read, but it's it's really good. It's Praying the Bible by Donald Whitney. And there's others there's other books on prayer, but to me, this is really super practical because a lot of times people struggle with, I don't know what to pray or I'm I'm really distracted with my prayer. And we'll get to that in a moment. We'll we'll come back to that.

Michael: 09:02

But this is what we're gonna be doing is we're actually gonna be praying scripture back to the lord. So it's like helping. This is an example of how we can help our counselees develop a praying life when they feel like they don't know what to pray. And so in in Psalm six, to Jeremy's point, as I read it, you can hear that this that David has struggled in so many things. And at this point, you've got Saul coming after his life.

Michael: 09:32

He's got all these enemies. His he's got his own family conflicts. There's all of these things happening. Absalom like, there's all of these things happening in his life. But to Jeremy's point, this is what's happening in David's life.

Michael: 09:43

And so for our counselees, that's why this this particular Psalm is so helpful because somebody could feel like they're being swallowed up by life, that their circumstances and situations are beyond their control. Maybe they're in a crisis situation. And when I read this Psalm, this is very much a crisis Psalm. Yes. You know?

Michael: 10:01

So this is a psalm for crisis care, but let's just practice this. I'll kinda start for the first couple verses. And then as you guys I'll I'll take a second and pause, and then you can just pray one of the verses as we go along. Verse one, oh lord, rebuke me not in your anger nor discipline me in your wrath, which sounds something like this. Oh lord, your discipline and your anger and your wrath are great.

Michael: 10:24

I know I have struggled with sin. I know there may be sins in my life that I'm struggling with, but thanks be to you that you died on the cross for me. And so your discipline for me is for my good, but I pray that the wrath and everything has already been taken by Christ. Verse two, be gracious to me, oh lord, for I am languishing. Heal me, oh lord, for my bones are troubled.

Michael: 10:50

Lord, be gracious to me, for I am overwhelmed. I feel like I am struggling with so much inside of my heart. I'm struggling with all of these things. Will you please heal me? I ache.

Michael: 11:04

I awake with these aches and pains because I'm troubled. Please help me.

Shauna: 11:08

Turn, oh lord, deliver me. Save me for the sake of your steadfast love. Lord, I I I ask you. I plea for drastic change in my life in this area. I I seek you to rescue me out of the darkness, out of the worry, free from worry.

Shauna: 11:30

For in death, there is no remembrance of you. Who will give you praise? Lord, I seek to give you praise. I seek to thank you for you being here and present, listening to me now and hearing my plea.

Jeremy: 11:43

I am weary with my moaning. Every night, I flood my bed with tears. I drench my couch with my weeping. Lord, I'm so overwhelmed. I can't sleep at night.

Jeremy: 11:55

I wake up with tremendous fear of tomorrow and the stressors that I'm going to have to face and the pressures that are bearing down on me. And I'm so grateful, lord, that you are one that you see my tears and you see my weeping.

Shauna: 12:08

Mhmm.

Jeremy: 12:09

And you care about my struggle, but sometimes I really wrestle with the fact that that you care. And I I can become overwhelmed with grief and with with anxiety. My eyes waste away because of grief. It grows weak because of all my foes. Or it feels like the world is against me.

Jeremy: 12:28

Sometimes I feel like I'm all alone, and I'm so sorry that I forget you. And I pray that your spirit would just begin to enliven in my heart an awareness of your presence even though it feels at times that the world is coming against me.

Michael: 12:44

That's really good. And you could work through these these subsequent verses in there. But even verses verse five, for in death, there is no remembrance of you, and Sheol, who will give you praise. So somebody who's struggling with just a insurmountable amount of fear that they feel like their life is in jeopardy. Again, to Jeremy's point earlier, there's these levels of emotion where it may be perception, but that's what they're feeling.

Michael: 13:11

And for them in those moments, it's real just like it was for David. And to the point where he's acknowledging the fact that, you know, if I'm dying if I'm dead, who's who's gonna give you praise? Deliver me so that I can proclaim your name. And sometimes when we're struggling, lord, you we feel like we don't have a voice that we can't talk about who you are and give praise and testimony to the work in my life that you're doing. So I I hope you guys are hearing the sense in which when we look at scripture and how we can pray scripture back to the lord and how it totally captures our emotions in the whole excuse me, in the human experience that really shares this relationship that we have with god, that he invites us into this.

Michael: 13:54

And that's what I love about how David ends this this verse or excuse me, this this Psalm, the lord has heard my plea. The lord accepts my prayer. It's I almost wonder if he started the Psalm, like, on day one, and then a month later, he goes back and finishes the Psalm. Because whatever what was going on that was just, you know, chaos in his heart and soul, the Lord delivered him from it, and he was able to come back. But I think that the takeaway from all of this is that the human response and experience is going back to the Lord because that's what's that's not what's happening when people are struggling with these things is they're not taking these words that David shares here and giving this back to the Lord.

Michael: 14:37

They're not communicating that with him. They're simply silent.

Jeremy: 14:40

Mhmm.

Michael: 14:40

They don't pray to him because they're like, what are they feeling? He's not listening. He doesn't care. He's not with me. Yeah.

Michael: 14:48

And so they don't pray. So that's why these Psalms are so important to hear the human experience. Any any thoughts, Jeremy?

Jeremy: 14:56

I think this is a beautiful exercise to do with a a person that we're counseling. And, again, remembering as a counselor to to process with them. You know, what was this like? Where did you feel encouraged? Where did you feel insecurity?

Jeremy: 15:12

Where did you feel challenged? So we're we're helping them develop this beautiful art of praying honestly, before the lord through a psalm, but recognizing this this might be new to them, so we need to be a source where they can process whatever is going on for them in that experience.

Michael: 15:30

Yeah. Exactly. And so this psalm would be really good for those struggling with despair and depression Oh, yeah. To varying degrees. So this would be really helpful.

Michael: 15:37

Shauna, do you have any

Shauna: 15:39

thoughts before we go to a different one? No. I I think I think always a good a good thing to to encourage and model in prayer regardless. Even if someone is a faithful prayer, always going back and praying scripture is, I feel like, one of the best things we could do. This isn't just in the counseling session or encouraging this as part of their growth assignment, but us as biblical counselors, like, how we're praying God's word for our own, life and heart.

Shauna: 16:05

And even as we start the session in prayer, you know, praying scripture of seeking God's wisdom and to be able to to love and serve them and encourage them in what they're going through. And so I think just overall, one of the big takeaways is just remembering, like, what John Piper says that prayer is the breathing of Christian life. And so there shouldn't be any any counseling session, you know, even encouragement with friends that shouldn't involve prayer at at some point. And the best thing we can do is pray god's word back to him. So I love that we're able to model this today.

Michael: 16:39

Yeah. That's really good. And another one would be, like, Psalm 51 for sin. Psalm one nineteen, Shawna was talking about before we hit the record button, it would be really good just about God's word and and how God's word does what it does in our hearts and giving us getting us to that place of thanksgiving and gratitude.

Shauna: 16:57

In the previous episodes, we were kinda talking about, like, lack of motivation or Yeah. Creating the spiritual rhythms. And, you know, often I hear it's embarrassing to pray to the lord to give me a heart to pray to you. Right? That feels at odd at odds.

Shauna: 17:10

But at the end of the day, that's what that's that's a good thing. And the psalmist were asking the lord, help me to delight in your word, lord. Help me to meditate on your precepts. And Psalms one nineteen, I think, is just a really sweet Psalms to be able to guide you in that if if that's a area. And and it's a good journaling Psalm, though.

Michael: 17:27

Yeah. Because it does. It it incorporates thanksgiving, confession, intercession. You know, Jeremy, you know, had mentioned, you know, also the Holy Spirit interceding for us and with with a language that we can't even understand because the anguish is so deep that it it it it can't even be articulated with the human tongue. Yes.

Michael: 17:46

But then also, you know, really, this is helping people overcome those barriers of distractions and doubts or the intrusive feelings. I mean, to me, Psalm six is nothing but intrusive. Mhmm. Right? So that's what's beautiful about this.

Michael: 18:01

And so just something as we kinda close out, and we we didn't hit on some of the other spiritual disciplines, like fasting, lamenting, waiting on God. These are other things, and we'll have some subsequent episodes on this. Actually, I'm going to try to reach out to Mark Vrokoff to see if I can if I can get him Yeah. On the podcast to do his waiting Wedding Isn't a Waste. That's a great book.

Michael: 18:26

I'll put that as also in the show notes for those of you. But there was a a quote that I saw early or no. Excuse me. Late last year. And, Jeremy, this is something that you and I both saw.

Michael: 18:36

But he said, spiritual disciplines are not about making you more precious to God. They're about making God more precious to you.

Jeremy: 18:43

Yes. Amen.

Michael: 18:44

And that is when we're having counselees come into our room, they're not feeling precious. They're feeling overwhelmed. Their relationship with the Lord, they're confused by it. They're not sure where they stand with the Lord. There's so much to sort out with them spiritually.

Michael: 19:01

And so that's why these spiritual disciplines are so key to be that continuing anchor to kinda help give them that sustainability, spiritually speaking, in the Lord. Or as John 15, what Jesus calls it is abiding. Mhmm. So any concluding thoughts before we wrap up this miniseries?

Shauna: 19:18

I I think it's good, you know, that we kinda stuck to the Psalms a bit today and because, obviously, the psalmist in the praying and worshiping the Psalms is a a good model for us and a guide to use in praying with lamenting being one of the the main movements here, right, of, like, the individual in the corporate Psalms of, realizing that it's not just lament learning to lament when we have the loss of a loved one, but just any loss and transition in our life, just being able to turn to God and bring our complaint to him and just ask God boldly for things and then choosing to trust and praise in him or those four movements of lament that provide that are very helpful for us in a lot of the suffering and things that we're going through. But I think what what's what I kinda wanna mention, you know, to the biblical counselors that are listening is where Psalms gives us a guide to prayer, I think it's also been helpful for me as I've encouraged people in prayer of in the New Testament of Jesus modeling prayer for us. I mean, that right there tells us the importance of it.

Shauna: 20:14

If Jesus Christ prayed to God, shouldn't we? Mhmm. And so just teaching them and drawing scriptures of how Jesus prayed for others helps us, right, to stir the importance of prayer and how he did it. And then I think Paul is a really good example and model for prayer and how he prayed for the church and how he prayed for the salvation of the the lost and just how he prayed for people and abounding in their love and just for other people. He was very personal then, like writing letters to the churches, starting off and having prayer in the midst of all those letters.

Shauna: 20:48

How are we also doing that for other people and and and then modeling that. And then, obviously, just looking at the New Testament of other things, like, where in praying scripture, we can pray God's commands. We can pray his promises. We get to pray for holiness. And there's a lot of the passages as your episode two doing your bible study method.

Shauna: 21:06

Right? And that prayer aspect of the truth that you're learning in the application, that's gonna obviously stir that prayer aspect of what we're praying to back to the lord. And I think those are those are really good.

Michael: 21:16

That's good.

Shauna: 21:16

And just helpful as far as, like, making sure that all of our biblical counselors out there make prayer a priority before the session, after the session, during the session at times. Right? But then, obviously, making sure that's an important aspect of their growth assignments because they can't implement or do anything without asking for the Holy Spirit's help.

Michael: 21:37

Yeah. That's good. Jeremy, any Yeah. Concluding thoughts?

Jeremy: 21:40

Just one one final thought for me. Just the the passages that we've looked at today in terms of the Psalms really models to us that in prayer, we are not hiding our emotions or repressing our emotions, but we are being given the opportunity to be transparent before God. And I just wanna read a passage real quick that that's just very beautiful in terms of our own weaknesses and God's posture towards us. Hebrews chapter four verse verse 14. Since then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens.

Jeremy: 22:11

Jesus, the son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are yet is without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace that may we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Mhmm. So there's just this beautiful invitation with confidence in all of our weaknesses and all of our sins to enter boldly into the throne room of grace where we will meet a savior who gets the struggle.

Michael: 22:46

And with that, we conclude this mini series on spiritual disciplines, discipleship, and counseling. Thank you guys again. Email us topics at speak the truth dot org so that we can know what you would like for us to talk about and discuss as you continue to minister in the context the lord has put you in. We love you. We thank you.

Michael: 23:04

We look forward to next time.