Mike: 00:08

Welcome to speak the truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are

Shauna: 00:21

Back in studio.

Mike: 00:22

Yes. We are. We have Shauna and Jeremy back in studio with us. It's been a little while. Matter of fact, it was this time last year.

Shauna: 00:29

I know. It kinda feels it's very weird.

Mike: 00:32

Yes.

Shauna: 00:32

Just being here with you guys. Exciting, though.

Mike: 00:35

Yeah. It's

Shauna: 00:35

it's Not weird in a bad way. Like, I mean

Mike: 00:38

Yeah. It's been a while since you've darkened the story.

Shauna: 00:41

Excuse me? Darkened? I thought I was a bright light. Shining the light of Jesus in this room, you mean?

Mike: 00:47

Yes. We are bright lights. Okay. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Mike: 00:51

Anyway, it is good. It is good to be back. Well, to everyone who's listening, we know it's been a little while, but we're gonna jump right in here in just a moment. We're gonna talk a little bit about what we've been up to this last year and what we're looking forward to in 2025. But this miniseries, we're gonna be focusing on discipleship and counseling, cultivating spiritual rhythms in our counseling sessions.

Mike: 01:14

But before we jump in to all that, Shauna, how you been?

Shauna: 01:17

Good. Good. It's awesome. I love just the start of a new year and just being able to think about you know, it's kind of like the you hit the you're able to hit kind of a reset, reboot button. Just think of new goals.

Shauna: 01:28

What does god have in store for the year? And 2025 is gonna be a huge year for our family. Our oldest son who got married last year is they're gonna have a baby. Well, actually, not last year, the year before. So they've been married for a little over a year.

Shauna: 01:43

And, anyway, so they're pregnant now. They're having a baby in March, and so that means Michael and I are becoming grandparents.

Mike: 01:49

Grandparents to baby Naomi.

Shauna: 01:51

Yep. And so our grandparent names are gonna be Oma and Opa, which is kinda cute. Michael Michael picked that because that was what you called your great grandfather. Right?

Mike: 01:59

Correct.

Shauna: 02:00

And so it's German or Dutch for grandma and grandpa, and so it's kinda fun fitting for our last name Van Dyke. And so

Mike: 02:06

that's cute. Appreciate how you're owning it. Yeah. I want to originally

Shauna: 02:10

wanted to be Nana, like Sean and Nana. That's cute. Right? But, no, it's all good. It's just the just the idea of us being in our forties and grandparents.

Shauna: 02:19

And just that thought of that moment of holding your kid's kid, it just feels very surreal.

Mike: 02:25

Yeah.

Shauna: 02:25

And, anyways, so that's just that's a huge year for us. And so, also, Dustin, who's our oldest, is graduating college. And so that's he's been in college for a bit, and so that's very exciting for us to be able to celebrate as a family. And then our youngest Jackson graduates high school, and so that's a really big life transition for him. And then we obviously become full on empty nesters, and not sure kinda what he's gonna decide.

Shauna: 02:47

I think he's leaning towards fire to being a firefighter at this point, so we'll see if if that's kind of what he ends up deciding. But so few changes in that way. But other than that, like, it's just been cool to just see, you know, and talk about what like, before the podcast started, just as talking about ABC and, just how excited we are about what God has in store for this year and not even knowing what else he has planned that we don't even know yet. But just being a part of that and the new resources coming out and, yeah, it's just it's just really cool. So

Mike: 03:16

yeah. Good. Jeremy, how you been, man?

Jeremy: 03:19

Been doing great. Missed you guys.

Mike: 03:20

Yes.

Jeremy: 03:21

So good to be back in the studio with you, and I do look forward to 2025 doing more of this as a team. And you guys are always just a pleasure to to be with. Family's doing great. Had a great holiday. My two boys from Austin were in spent some time with us, so that's nice.

Jeremy: 03:36

We also have a high school senior. Alright. They were preparing to launch in May, and it's hard to believe she's a senior. But

Mike: 03:45

Does she know where she's going to college or where she wants to go?

Jeremy: 03:47

Well, yesterday, she got an acceptance letter from OU Okay. Which so we've got the boys at UT, and she's going she's thinking about the rival school

Shauna: 03:56

in terms of football. Oh, no. That's true. Oh god.

Jeremy: 04:00

But she's also not That's it. Exactly set on being too far away. So Yeah. We'll see.

Mike: 04:05

That's fair.

Jeremy: 04:06

Yeah. Nice. But things are going great. I am excited about ABC in 2025 and just passionate about what god has called us to in terms of equipping the saints and equipping the church, and he's just opening a lot of of new opportunities for us to do that in Canada and really around the world.

Mike: 04:22

Mhmm.

Jeremy: 04:22

And so I'm just eager to see what he has in store for us in 2025.

Mike: 04:27

Yep. Yes. Yes. Eager indeed. Eager indeed.

Mike: 04:30

Well, like I said, we're gonna launch into this miniseries, discipleship and counseling, cultivating spiritual rhythms in our counseling sessions. But before we kinda dive into the meat of this session, just experientially speaking, Shauna, Jeremy, what have you guys experienced in terms of seeing consolees sort of struggle in this development of spiritual rhythms?

Jeremy: 04:52

A lot of times, you know, you explain something in session and a person goes out, and that's first time they've ever heard anything. And so they get home, and it's hard for them to retain what was taught in the session. And so it's hard for them to complete the homework. So it's just a process of giving them the freedom to be honest about any challenges that they're facing and not feeling like they've gotta report to us like a teacher and that they're gonna get a a bad grade or something if they don't complete it. We wanna enter into that struggle with them and and talk through whatever challenges they're facing that's preventing them to do the homework.

Mike: 05:29

Yeah. So, Shauna, what are some of your thoughts?

Shauna: 05:31

Well, your initial question was kind of the challenges of spiritual disciplines. Right? And so for me, our growth assignments that we give as a vocal counselors is to help stir those rhythms. But so initially, when you think about, okay, one, there's obviously maybe later, we'll talk about, well, like, what's fruitful within a growth assignment, what's helpful for that. And those things need to be kind of check like, do like, hitting in on the challenges of what the spiritual rhythm is.

Shauna: 05:58

And and I think what I experienced a lot, obviously, I I counsel only women, is just the busyness of it. You know? Like, not only is it what they're struggling with that kinda makes it hard sometimes to have those spiritual rhythms, but then it's the busyness of life, right, like, a mother and having the time to do those things. And, you know, recently, my brother asked me to watch my nieces, and they're little one and six. And and I just haven't had littles in the house in a long time, right, because our kids are older.

Shauna: 06:26

And I had kind of that picture of, like, they're not sitting still at any point. Like, I'm up and about all the time. Okay. Like, when you're asking a mother of littles to sit down and kinda have some of these spiritual rhythms, having that time to fully be able to devote and study time like I do with more of an empty house and older kids, it's just not the same. And so I think one of the things that's important is realizing what are those limitations, what are those challenges, really being able to process that first before you just kinda jump in and and giving an assignment.

Shauna: 06:58

But, yeah, lack of discipleship, accountability, like, all of those things. Also, when you really think about it, just in normal worldly things, like how much routine do we actually have in our life? I know I don't have as much as I'd like to, but when you think rhythms, that's more routines. Like, where's the consistency in the things that we do? And then how does that obviously play into the spiritual aspect?

Mike: 07:19

Yeah.

Shauna: 07:20

That Is that kinda what you're thinking?

Mike: 07:21

Yeah. That's good. And it's, you know, those common excuses, right, to to the point that you're saying that reveal those challenges. So whether it's time, time constraints

Shauna: 07:29

Mhmm.

Mike: 07:29

You know, or they lack the motivation because they're exhausted. What what whatever it is, there's all of these competing factors that play into people's time that are working against the work that we're giving them for their good.

Shauna: 07:42

Right.

Mike: 07:42

And so really, that's kind of the goal is, like, even moving into the first session of being able to ask good questions, and even whether it's in the intake forms that we have or in that sort of first first or second session where we're sort of assessing what is their relationship with the Lord, you know, how how are they practicing these disciplines? Because if if there's really not a practice or a consistency there, more than likely, we're gonna need to help them develop that in session Mhmm. Where we're reading scripture with them, we're praying with them. Because they'll hear us, and I don't know if y'all do this, But sometimes depending on who my consulee is, I'll ask them to close out, and they're they're uncomfortable. Yeah.

Mike: 08:24

And they they're not sure. And then it's just realizing, oh, it's just it's just having a conversation. And so maybe I'll go you know, we're like, hey. Let's read this let's read this these couple verses together or this psalm and, like, what did that mean to you? What do you think this person was doing?

Mike: 08:39

Do you see this as a prayer? Like, they're just having a conversation with God and and just meeting people where they are, and then it sort of just kinda, like, dismantles that wall that they've put up Mhmm. And feeling embarrassed and shameful that they should have a better relationship with the Lord. And so it's like that those first couple of sessions really sort of help us to, like, see that discipling element to it.

Shauna: 09:01

I you know, one of the things that you said that kinda jumped out at me just now was just was the word motivation. You know, I think in reality, a lot of the things of of what do we feel like doing and how that kinda dominates the decisions that we're making and a lot of people that could just be struggling of even negative self talk. Like, I don't wanna read the bible because I it's just too much. I don't understand it. It's not as practical.

Shauna: 09:25

You know? Early on, people were coming to counseling just to, hey. Here's my problems. Help me fix it. And they wanted very practical things in their world, right, to talk about.

Shauna: 09:35

And reading the bible and praying, they didn't really see the importance and the value of that. And so sometimes you gotta just take time to really think through their motivations and desires first before you're just kind of jumping in. Mhmm. Or in a lot of suffering, right, we feel distant from God. Like, God, where are you?

Shauna: 09:50

Yeah. And almost giving them that permission and helping them realize that a lot of the Psalms is questioning God and asking for these things. And that's totally okay to bring our complaint to him, and that's a movement and a process of lament. And helping to be able to sit there and hear their struggle and to to to speak into that kinda helps with the importance, changes, hopefully, their desire and motivations that then eventually will become a spiritual rhythm in their life. You know?

Mike: 10:15

Yeah. That's good. That's good. And then it you know, with all of those things, it's for the who's struggling in that, being able to give them, like, a psalm, like you mentioned the Psalms Mhmm. A moment ago and having them actually write their own psalm.

Mike: 10:32

That is really effective because you can kinda hear their relationship with the Lord. Mhmm. To your point, maybe where they are in that moment. Is it a season of suffering? Are they feeling pretty good about everything?

Mike: 10:43

And so they're just kinda in this everything's great. I'm I'm thankful, but but but there doesn't seem to be much time spent with the Lord in those things and and having gratitude and thankfulness and those sorts of things. And so, yeah, those are those are definitely huge revealers in the counseling room for the counselees. And I wanted to just a a couple of scripture verses to kinda go along with this. Jeremy, I'm gonna read second Timothy three sixteen and seventeen.

Mike: 11:09

Could you read Colossians three sixteen? And then, Shauna, could you pull up Psalms 19? I thought we could kinda share some of these scripture verses that we understand as counselors, but do our counselees understand this stuff? Right? And so it it in other words, there's a there's part of the dynamic in counseling moves beyond sort of just the listening piece, and then there's a little bit of teaching.

Mike: 11:36

Right? And that might be a methodology that some of our counts like, some of the counselors out there listening might struggle with, where it's just like I'm listening to these things, but I'm not I'm not I'm not quite sure where to go from here with this that the consulates are kinda going through. So with that, second Timothy three sixteen and seventeen, all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. So, obviously, the word of God is breathed out by God. It's profitable.

Mike: 12:12

It's accomplishing something. It's purposeful. And so, you know, that's helpful to a consolee who may just be, Shanna, to your point with motivation, who's not really convinced of that functionally. Right? They may be struggling with, is God really there?

Mike: 12:25

Is he really listening? Even regardless of how we might feel, but reading scripture and reminding our consolees of this very fact that, you know, the very soul that was given to us and breathed into our nostrils is the very life giving reality of God's word and just kinda reminding them of that. And so we see the precedent for God's word being that active agent in what we're doing when we're counseling. So Colossians three sixteen?

Jeremy: 12:53

Yeah. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to god. You know, here, I love just how Paul is really pointing us to the fact that when we are reading god's word, it's really introducing us to the wisdom of how to live life, the wisdom of god in terms of the way and the path that leads to righteousness and the and the path that doesn't. And how he also connects the reading of god's word, not just as a thing to to just check off the list that day, but that you're actually entering into this place of worship. Yeah.

Jeremy: 13:34

That reading god's word might even lead you to begin to just pray prayers of gratitude, prayers of thanksgiving, even listening to some worship music

Shauna: 13:43

Yeah.

Jeremy: 13:44

As a means to to realize this isn't just task that I'm doing for my day to make sure that I can check the box, but I'm entering into communion with God, and it's a very sacred moment and and where the holy spirit is gonna, through his word, guide and teach me.

Mike: 14:00

And I think what I'd what I love about that, Jeremy, too is just even in verse 16, some of those prepositional phrases and, like, in your hearts to God. Like, there's this practice of doing these things because, Shauna, like what you were saying earlier where maybe the attitude or heart of a consolee, maybe they're struggling with a level of hardheartedness, and it's difficult for them to get to this place. Yes. Mhmm. Instead of talking for forty five minutes or hearing them talk for forty five minutes and then giving them a growth assignment.

Mike: 14:32

If this is the case and this is an imperative that we're given, like, as counselors in in sort of this dynamic of discipleship, like, can practice this with them. Mhmm. And that helps develop for them. I'd and I I just I've done this in the past, but I I feel like in the last couple of years, I've had a a a very serious conviction about this in in terms of my counseling and the discipling that happens because I've seen the lack of discipleship in in a lot of the counselees that we counsel. So I just I love this.

Mike: 15:03

And then, Shauna, you went to Psalm 19. This is, like, one of my favorites, but will you read that?

Shauna: 15:08

So Psalms 19 starting in verse one. The heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor are there words whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all of the earth and their words to the end of the world.

Shauna: 15:28

In him, he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man run its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat. The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise is simple. The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart.

Shauna: 15:54

The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever, and the rules of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold, sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is your servant warned, in keeping them there is great reward. Who can discern his errors?

Shauna: 16:18

Declare me innocent from hidden faults. Keep back your servants also from presumptuous sins. Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless and innocent of great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, o Lord, my rock and my redeemer.

Shauna: 16:37

That last verse was actually this is that was the ESV translation, by the way. But that last verse 14 was something that someone was just sharing with me last night that it was almost like a life verse for her. It was something that she continued to meditate on and talk to the Lord about every day. I I love Psalms 19. I use this chapter often to talk about, just who God is, you you know, just reminding them.

Shauna: 17:02

Because in reality, in this short chapter, there's three movements of God's revelation and how he revealed himself to us. And the first part, verses one through six, is his general revelation. You know, we get to see in these short verses how God is all powerful. He's all knowing. He's always present.

Shauna: 17:18

And then it moves into that special revelation, like how he revealed himself to or through the Bible. We have the glory of God displayed in the heavens then points us to the grace of God that's displayed in the Bible. And it's such a beautiful thing to see this efficiency of scripture. Like, it's perfect and it's sure and it's wise and right and pure and clean. It's something that we can trust that we can always go to and and it's living and active, right, where we see from the other passages.

Shauna: 17:44

And then and then the final verses where it kinda talks about god's you know, or just the applied revelation. Like, how do we apply this? Lord, may my heart, right, be or my words, the meditation of my heart and the words be before you or acceptable in your sight. But coming from that foundation, like, you're my rock. You're my redeemer.

Shauna: 18:01

You are my creator. You you are here. Right? The heavens declare your name. And so it's just a sweet a sweet chapter to really focus on the Lord, meditate on his word, see the importance of scripture just to remind them of that, and hopefully that stirs a motivation in them as it does in me.

Mike: 18:18

No. That's really good. And, you know, actually, verses 11 through 14, it just you can see how the word is applied. And what I love about this is you see father, son, holy spirit.

Shauna: 18:28

And

Mike: 18:29

the way that you've talked about, you know, creator, God the father, and then the word of God, logos. Right? Genesis one and then John one, and then you see the reality of the word. And then 11 through 14 is really the holy spirit. Like, the the holy spirit is doing something actively with the word in our hearts, in our attitudes, and our affections.

Mike: 18:53

And then you end with verse 14. To your point, this is what it's accomplishing to now. Our posture is like, lord, help me. Like, let my heart be this or let my heart be that. And it's it's showing those rhythms to our counselees to see because not that we're judging them in our counsel, like, that they should be better than that.

Mike: 19:13

It's like, we're all prone to that struggle. And so to be able to share that with them in the counseling room, and and I and I've just I've experienced in the past where you see people's just posture change, like their eyes, you know, like that there's like these physiological responses that you can just see that, like, it it's impacting them. And then it reminded me of of Hebrews chapter four verses 11 and excuse me, twelve and thirteen. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than a two edged sword piercing to the division of soul and spirit of joints and a marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give an account.

Mike: 19:56

So you see again kind of that, you know, the reality of the word and what it accomplishes. And that can be frightening for people too and and overwhelming. And so I think just being able to enter into that with them is really helpful. Jeremy, any closing thoughts?

Jeremy: 20:10

Yeah. You know, that that third section, I'd love the the dependency that is revealed there that, you know, he's he's asking the lord to keep back his servants from sin. Let them not have dominion over me. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight. So it's not just like reading the word in some kind of self help manner, but it's really learning that in order for the word to have its impact, we we are extremely dependent on the spirit of God.

Jeremy: 20:40

Amen.

Mike: 20:41

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good. So, really, the the the goal for for discipleship and counseling in terms of cultivating spiritual rhythms in session is really to equip the counselors out there to guide our counselees in developing better spiritual rhythms as a means of growth and sanctification during trials, sins, struggles, and suffering.

Mike: 21:02

Right? That's why they're coming into that's why they're coming into the office and trying to get help and and and to reorient their heart or minds or thoughts or worries or whatever is going on in their lives. And the word of God helps us draw that all in to re center and like what you were saying from Psalm 19. So that's good. But that's the goal.

Mike: 21:22

And what I

Jeremy: 21:23

think one critical thing here is that when we assign these when we assign homework, it's very important to follow-up.

Shauna: 21:30

Yep. Yeah.

Jeremy: 21:30

And it's very important to to just stay with it if they're not getting things done that we're addressing those things versus they didn't do the homework, so we're just gonna talk about something else that day. Yeah. Let's talk about what's

Mike: 21:41

going on. Yeah. Be persistent in where they're at.

Shauna: 21:43

Yes.

Mike: 21:44

Yeah. That's good. That's good. Alright. Well, thank you guys for listening, and I'll put in the show notes because, again, we're coming on the ABC conference.

Mike: 21:51

That's gonna be here before we know it. So we'll give you guys the information in the show notes so you can go ahead and get registered and get excited about what's coming. Think about what breakouts you wanna be involved in and bring in teams. Thank you for listening. We'll see you guys next time.