Mike: 00:08

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are back in studio continuing our conversation on this miniseries about some diagnostic and statistical diagnoses.

Mike: 00:29

On this one, we're gonna be talking about narcissistic personality disorder. And as the last two episodes I've been joined by Beth Clays, we are again together talking about this particular topic and this disorder, quote, unquote, disorder. We're gonna talk about it. We've had some inquiry about narcissism and asked if we could talk about it at length. So we got about 15 minutes of length that we can talk about this.

Mike: 00:54

But at any rate, I'm joined with Beth. Beth, how we doing?

Beth: 00:57

I'm good. How are you?

Mike: 00:59

Good. We're just psychologized over here after these last couple episodes. At any rate, we're gonna talk about narcissism. Beth, could you just give us a just a general description, definition of narcissistic personality disorder?

Beth: 01:12

I think before I even do that, we have to acknowledge that there are almost 2 types of narcissism, at least the way we talk about it. There is narcissistic personality disorder as it is defined in the DSM, and then there is just a more general narcissism that we talk about often in our culture, and we kind of, no. We don't usually self diagnose this one. We typically diagnose this in other people, and they're not necessarily even in full agreement with one another. Narcissistic personality disorder is a relatively low in the population.

Beth: 01:52

So the DSM 5 says it's about 6% of the population meets the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, and it's characterized by things like being very self absorbed, a need for admiration, and a lack of empathy, I'd say, are the 3 biggest, most significant aspects of that diagnosis. But the way that we talk about it more culturally, yes, I would say self absorption is a key piece of that. But we also if if I Google this, if you Google narcissism, you get a really long list of things to look for that are not listed in the DSM. So, again, we I'm not saying that that doesn't mean that there's not good reason to talk about those behaviors or that someone who's written a book or has done research and identified other traits that they think are part of narcissism. I'm not saying those things are inherently wrong or any of that, but just acknowledging that they they are a little bit different.

Beth: 02:57

So does that make sense?

Mike: 02:58

No. It does. And it's but I say, it's funny, meaning that within the nuance of those two things, whether it's degree of symptoms or maybe an obnoxious level of something that's self focused. Before we hit the record button, we were talking about this because Beth can speak for herself as far as that's concerned. But I know for me in in the biblical counseling world, in my counseling days and hours, just about everybody I counsel somewhere at some point in their life has a relationship where they are talking about, oh, yeah.

Mike: 03:30

So and so, they're a narcissist and or they're narcissistic. And it's funny is they always talk about everyone else, but it can never be themselves. And so the so like you pointed out, it's they they diagnose everyone else, but there's no there's no reality of that within themselves, which is interesting because we can look at that psychological label and talk about that. But we know biblically because that's ultimately the framework that we're trying to talk about. And how do we understand these psychological labels within a biblical framework as Christians and believers and pastors and elders and counselors and just Christians.

Mike: 04:04

And I hear this a lot even within the Christian community. It's when they're trying to get counseling, they got all the stuff going on, and they always drop that. Whether it's a whether it's a parent trying to communicate on behalf of their kid and trying to give me sort of a summary of what's going on with their kids. Yeah. I think the narcissistic tendencies are like, so it's all over the place.

Mike: 04:22

And the reality is, biblically speaking, it's idolatry. That's like scripture has more to say about narcissism than the DSM does. If you want more symptomologies and not just descriptors because we've talked about that in the last couple episodes of just the reality of making a distinction between description and explanation that the DSM just provides descriptions for behavior and mood, but it doesn't really provide the root level, which we know scripture is because, again, we're talking about the omnipresent cardiologist who is the one who diagnoses all of that because he made man. And so when we talk about narcissism, we're all narcissists. Now, obviously, some people might flex a greater degree than others, but this is very much everyone on the planet kind of thing.

Mike: 05:09

Beth, some thoughts?

Beth: 05:10

Yeah. Yeah. I think that recognizing our own inclination towards self absorption, selfishness, even manipulation, which is wrong, but I don't know if if any human being could say that they've never manipulated another person to try to get what they want. So, again, I don't wanna be too dismissive. I do think that there are people who fit that pattern of behaviors to such a high degree that they can become abusive.

Beth: 05:42

There can be very challenging dynamics to deal with. I acknowledge that. On the other hand, though, to your point, I agree that the way that we use this term in our culture, it almost becomes a reason to dismiss a relationship. Hey. This person is a narcissist, so I am not gonna be in relationship with them anymore.

Beth: 06:00

And there's a couple of cautions I would have to that. One is, typically, if we're ready to write off a relationship, it's because we've had a conflict with that person, and conflict is always going to bring out selfishness on both sides. It it just does. And so on one hand, when you're in conflict, you are going to notice the other person's they just wanna be right. They're they're just focusing on their own interest.

Beth: 06:26

They're not noticing or caring about where I'm coming from, and those things may even be somewhat accurate. At the same time, the view that we have of ourselves is that I have noble goals in this conflict. I I am handling this right, and I I'm doing it right. And so we could miss what's actually happening there, and then we label a person as being narcissistic. We write that relationship off, and the the number of parents that I have met with who have adult children who have written them off or in marriage or other relationships where where people have determined by their own diagnosis that the person they're dealing with is a narcissist, they I don't know that to the degree that the response is, I'm just gonna sever that relationship.

Beth: 07:19

I'm not sure that that is a good picture of, as a whole, how we should respond as followers of Christ to a dysfunctional or difficult relationship. There may be times where creating boundaries and separation is needed, but I don't know if it should be the first place we run.

Mike: 07:36

Yeah. No. That's really good, Beth. I appreciate that distinction. And just because, again, I said I I might spaz on this episode a little bit because this this one seems to be the most prevalent in our culture, I think.

Mike: 07:49

At least, it's it's what I hear the most of. And but something that you said that I I wanna highlight to me that really within this miniseries talking about codependency, generalized anxiety disorder, and now narcissism, I think what we have to take into consideration as believers when we're dealing and identifying, you know, within this sort of psychologized culture, that helps us identify things, but more so to your very point, Beth, about how we we use the label as a judgmental tool that's justified to say, I'm not doing relationship with this person because they've exhibited this. The problem with that is is not I'm not saying it's there's never a situation where we we break fellowship with somebody, relationally speaking. That's needed. But that also goes to where I'm trying to go with this point is there's a reality of conflict that we have to deal with in relationships.

Mike: 08:41

We can't just use psychological labels as justification to not pursue peace, to not pursue reconciliation. And and I think in in all three of these psychological sort of labels and diagnoses that we've talked about, it really is going back to the relational dynamic of how we do life with each other, that we are called to live in community. And if we're around people long enough, we're gonna see these these exhibited a lot. So any any thoughts on that, Beth, of just a reality of, yes, all of these things can be true, and we we can have these conversations, and we can acknowledge these things. But are we using these psychological labels as a justification to remove ourself from a relationship?

Beth: 09:26

I certainly think I've no. I've seen that. I think we can do that. I think, as you said, there could be times where there is a need for some kind of boundary in a relationship, but I don't think that that is the first, yeah, the first place that we should be going or even necessarily where we always end up. I think about how if if we recognize that narcissism is rooted in, yeah, self absorption, it is rooted in selfishness and wanting the affirmation of other people.

Beth: 10:02

These are things that the gospel does address. It does redeem people who are broken. And one of the issues that I have with the way we talk about narcissism is that it really is one of the more dismissive labels that are out there. People feel like if you think someone is a narcissist, there's no hope for them. That's why you put down a relational boundary, because there's no way to have a healthy relationship with the narcissist.

Beth: 10:30

And, again, recognizing that most of the time, that is a diagnosis the person who's in that relationship has made themselves. And I don't believe that as a follower of Christ. I do think there may be relationships where wise it it it requires wise counsel to think about how to navigate in some dysfunctional patterns that may be present, but I don't believe that someone who has self absorption and who maybe even does look like a narcissist, that the best way forward is always gonna be to sever a relationship. I think that the best way forward is engaging with them in a different way, in a way that we pray and hope and believe that god could still do something in a person who's stuck in a cycle of dysfunction. And so, man, there's there's a lot more we could say about this.

Beth: 11:25

I have lots of thoughts of how how we could go about that process.

Mike: 11:30

Sounds like your next blog article. Yeah. Which, by the way, I'll put Beth's blog site in in the show notes. So sorry not to disrupt your thought. I just blog.

Mike: 11:40

Yeah.

Beth: 11:40

Yeah. No. I I appreciate that. That's all I was gonna say. There is more that can be said, but I think just I would encourage believers to when they feel like someone in their life has narcissistic behaviors rather than looking at that as a, I need to stop interacting with this person to instead think about, okay.

Beth: 11:59

So what what might god be calling me to in this relationship that is honoring of him and this person and believing in the hope that we have in Christ to change and transform us even in great brokenness?

Mike: 12:15

That's really good. That's really good. Yeah. I I think this podcast going on about narcissism is is something that we could probably have within its own self and miniseries with talking about this and having each episode a segment of that. But I think just being able to provide a high level overview and conversation and discussion around just within these 3 these psychological labels that we've identified and talked about that we always have to find ourselves within a biblical framework as believers and how we're engaging with these.

Mike: 12:47

We can't dismiss them ultimately to what we've been saying in all three collectively, because we can't dismiss it. But we do need to be able to have a conversation around it. Right? It's like we can't be in the world or we can't we can't be in the world and remove or isolate ourselves from the world to, like, stay away from the bad. We've gotta be able to engage.

Mike: 13:05

And just like we need to be able to engage with these psychological labels. Just in closing, Beth, is there any any last encouraging words or thoughts that you would have just around maybe some people that are dealing with what we've talked about where, you know what, I actually have wrote this person off because they've exhibited these things within these narcissistic behaviors and tendencies. How would you encourage them to, from a biblical perspective, to maybe reengage the those relationships?

Beth: 13:30

Yeah. I think that if they haven't already, I would encourage someone to talk to a mentor, a counselor, a a wise friend about those relational dynamics to help them to maybe be able to tease apart? What what responses have they had that may be contributing to some of the unhealth in the relationship? And how can if they were going to reestablish relationship, how can they be intentional about entering into it from a different perspective with a different behavioral pattern? And I think because if they're in close relationship with this person, it's hard to see clearly.

Beth: 14:10

So bringing another person in to help them process that and make a plan and think it through could be really helpful because you also I wouldn't want someone to listen to this podcast, and maybe they have been in a relationship with someone who truly is abusive, and they're not prepared to enter back into that relationship in a healthy way. So bringing another perspective in to be able to tease apart, was this abusive or was that they're unhealthier that I could enter back into it and and potentially bring more health back into this relationship? Talk to someone else. Get their thoughts, someone that you trust to help you figure out a path forward.

Mike: 14:47

No. That's really good. I appreciate that caveat because that's really true. And and again, this is more of a generalized conversation, Not those kind of one off situations where to Beth's point, there's definitely gonna be some legitimate relationships that are beyond strained and quite destructive. Beth, I appreciate it.

Mike: 15:03

Thank you for joining me on this mini series, and I hope we can have some more of these. As there are many psychological labels that that are thrown around that we hear a lot of that a lot of people feel demystified by, that they can't really engage with. Because when they hear those psychological labels, they just sort of like, yeah. I can't compete with that. I got nothing.

Mike: 15:22

But we do. We have the gospel, much like Beth was saying. We have the Holy Spirit within us, but we have truth. But outside of that doesn't give us license to be a jerk. Right?

Mike: 15:32

Like Beth said too, we wanna be we wanna we wanna provide care. We wanna meet people where they are. But, obviously, the goal is not to leave them there. So we wanna care for them as we address these things. Beth, thank you so much for being with us.

Mike: 15:44

Thank you guys for listening. And I wanna just encourage you guys again, email us at topics at speak the truth dot org. Let us know what you'd like us to talk about. We look forward to it. Thank you guys for listening.

Mike: 15:53

We'll see you next time.