Michael: 00:08

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are back in studio.

Michael: 00:22

I am Han Solo. I am by myself. However, I do have a special guest. They are special, but they have been with us before. Earlier this year, we had Beth Clays, and she is with us again earlier this year when y'all were listening to the podcast when we were in Salem, Oregon at the May to Minister Conference.

Michael: 00:40

Beth told her story and her journey for really teaching and knowing psychology, and that's really her background, but how she became a biblical counselor. And I'll put that in the show notes, that episode. But I wanted to bring Beth on today because, first, it'll be a miniseries of sorts. We're gonna talk about 3 separate sort of mood behavior disorders, and I'll let Beth kinda, in her expertise, explain that a little bit. But we're gonna have a little miniseries, and we're gonna continuing to unpack these diagnoses that our culture uses these psychological labels.

Michael: 01:09

And as Christians, we use them as well. And I brought Beth on to really just have her speak to this because this is her background, but then also her biblical framework and where she's at her church context in Vancouver, Washington. Beth, how are we doing?

Beth: 01:23

That's right. I'm good. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me back.

Michael: 01:27

We're gonna be talking about codependency. And we've had some inquiries about this, and so I wanted to field that inquiry and have Beth on to talk about codependency and just basically provide just more of a clinical definition of what codependency is as best she can as it relates to the DSM, but then also kinda juxtapose that to just a biblical framework for how we understand codependency. So, Beth, you wanna jump us off on codependency? Yeah.

Beth: 01:52

So it's interesting because we talk a lot about codependency in our culture, and I think we have as just general public a sense of what it is because of the way we talk about it. And, certainly, I would say that the behaviors that are part of codependency often are dysfunctional or problematic. At the same time, it's not something that it's not a diagnosable disorder that you're gonna find in the DSM. Some of those behaviors could fit within other diagnose diagnoses, but codependency itself is not its own diagnosis. What it is really has to do with how we relate to other people.

Beth: 02:35

It is often a person taking more responsibility than they should for the well-being of another person, and well-being may even be poorly defined. So it may not be what's actually in another person's best interest, but kind of trying to maintain a homeostasis or keep the other person happy, or they feel responsible for the other person's emotions or their reactions. And so sometimes, even though, in some ways, they're looking at maybe a relationship where they're feeling codependency, and they may be acting in ways to it almost can feel, like, kindness, like they're trying to do things that make the other person more happy or content or whatever it is. But because that can become such the primary motivation, they may actually end up engaging in some behaviors that are unhealthy or dysfunctional to try to maintain that level of contentment or happiness in the other person. So I guess in the most simplistic form, codependency is, again, taking more responsibility on yourself for other people's emotions or how they're responding to things in their life, in their environment.

Michael: 03:53

Yeah. That's good. Just for that generalized sort of understanding of codependency. And I think there's a biblical category for that. Right?

Michael: 04:02

What would you say the biblical category for that is, Beth?

Beth: 04:05

I I think it fits well with fear of man, seeking approval in other people, finding our identity in relationships with other people. If a relationship is okay, then I'm okay. And if a relationship's not okay, then I don't feel okay. And so all of that is is, yeah, ultimately basing our sense of peace in something other than god. Right?

Beth: 04:28

We're carrying too much. We're valuing too much things in the create created world. And it as we know, it's a broken world. And so, unfortunately, if we do that, it's ultimately going to lead us leave us dissatisfied and struggling in some capacity.

Michael: 04:47

No. That's really good. And I think in the inquiry that I got specifically around codependency was, how do we deal with codependency? In other words, if I have somebody in my life, whether it's a work relationship, a family relationship, or a spousal relationship, what is a good biblical framework to address this label of codependency? Because some of the characteristics that a codependent person that I've heard use loosely and Beth and I will talk more about not not so much in codependency because as Beth pointed out, this isn't, like, necessarily a clinical diagnosis.

Michael: 05:22

Right? It's characterized in other, diagnoses. But just some of the codependent characteristics, like, very clingy person complaining. So there's, like, these behavioral, responses to codependency. Hard to reason with, hard to get along with, easily crushed, poor self image, which I think that's where some of this codependency language came from was a self help type stuff.

Michael: 05:47

Would you agree with that, Beth?

Beth: 05:48

Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Self help type books, for sure, have filled in a lot of gaps for people.

Michael: 05:53

Yes. They have, unfortunately. And then another one would be consumed with making relationships work, which is a huge one. And then enables and excuses the other person's destructive behavior, which I would you can see this parentally and even spousally, maybe. Any thoughts on that, Beth, as far as some of these characteristics that are displayed?

Beth: 06:10

Yeah. I mean, I think that with the last 2 in particular that you mentioned, I have a couple of thoughts, then maybe we'll circle back to some of the others. But I think there are a few different reasons why codependent patterns of behavior can develop, and one is what we already identified. It's the part of us that just gets really wrapped up in finding our identity, our, sense of self from the approval of other people, the acceptance of other people, from trying to be in high esteem in someone else's eyes. That can be a a significant factor in codependency in relationships.

Beth: 06:49

Another one, though, I that I think also is important to mention is that sometimes codependent behaviors come out as a result of a season of suffering in a difficult relationship where you are you're just in it. You're struggling, and you are almost willing to do anything to try to maintain some kind of homeostasis, normalcy, something that feels like it's less chaotic. And I think a lot of times that's why we seek more codependent behaviors in abusive situations or in people who where there's someone who's struggling with addiction. Part of the reason they can become someone who enables that dysfunctional or destructive behavior is not because they want that to happen, but because they often have gone through a season of suffering. And they're just they almost have tunnel vision, and they're looking at it, What can I do in this relationship just to try to keep things okay?

Beth: 07:51

And so I think recognizing both of those pieces, because on one hand, certainly, in both instances, there's a dysfunctional and unhealthy, even sinful behavior involved in how people are responding. But I think coming at it with compassion and recognizing that a lot of times, people develop these kinds of patterns as a result of, yes, a misplaced identity, but also as a coping mechanism for dealing with ongoing stress that just becomes unhealthy.

Michael: 08:22

Yeah. That's good. And then, obviously because in fielding this inquiry initially was how do we, again, how do we deal with that? And it's like you just kinda pointed out in ways that we can kinda help sort that out. But then relationally, how do we address and sort of these characteristics as we've mentioned, how would you encourage somebody who has identified somebody that some relationship within their life that they're dealing with codependency?

Michael: 08:45

How would you encourage them to address or confront that codependency?

Beth: 08:50

Yeah. Yeah. I think a few things. I mean, I'd certainly want to understand what that person's relationship with the Lord is like. What just is to gain an understanding of who they are and how they're viewing that part of their life.

Beth: 09:06

I think getting a better sense of that would help me figure out what things might need to be corrected or changed and how they view god, who god is, and where maybe even their identity is getting a little bit off kilter. I also think a huge part of trying to help someone who's struggling with codependency is helping them to see what's rightly their responsibility and what is not. So, again, with someone who's codependent, they wrap up their sense of whether things are okay based on the other people in their life, what if the relationship is okay or if other people view them the way they want to be treated. And so trying to help them shift to how other people respond to you actually isn't your responsibility. Right?

Beth: 09:51

The what is your responsibility is responding the way that god calls us to respond in relationships, to treat people in certain ways, yes, but how they respond to that is on them. And so you try and help them redefine those boundary lines of your responsibility is to recognize that you'll be held accountable for your own actions before the lord. But how other people respond to you or to other situations in life, that's their own responsibility. That's what they will be held accountable for. And so if someone responds poorly in the relationship or they're mad at you or they treat you in a certain way, then it's figuring out, how do I take that to the codependent person?

Beth: 10:35

How do I take that to the lord and take the discomfort I feel, the frustration I feel about this rupture in a relationship, and know that what I ultimately need to work on is what I do in response to that and not trying to necessarily make it all okay according to my definition, whatever that may be. So I think about Galatians, 6, which talks about we need to test our own actions. A man reaps what he sows. Each person has to bear their own load. So helping someone who's struggling with codependency kind of think through those things in terms of, relationally, how do you figure out what part is yours and what part is not?

Beth: 11:14

Yeah. Those are some of the first thoughts I have in terms of helping people start to sift through that. I think for someone who's in relationship with the person who's codependent, they almost have to go through the same process. So even if they don't see themselves as codependent, they almost have to kind of think through, okay. It's not my job to make this person feel a certain way.

Beth: 11:39

And so I need to, again, see what's in my circle of responsibility here and what is outside of it. What would god have me do? What is not mine to hold and own and carry? So in some ways, I'd say the advice is the same for the person who is codependent and for the person who is living with someone who's codependent. It's figuring out how to help them have wisdom in recognizing relational boundaries.

Michael: 12:04

No. That's really good. And I think just in counseling specifically, and usually see this in marriage couples where you've got a spouse that's and I think what's interesting to some degree, like, you kinda pointed out on either side of that, whether you're the person who's codependent or you're the person who is on the other side of that, then it's still kinda the same pursuit. I think the difference is maybe how do we address that? And then how do we it's one thing to confront it, but it's another thing to because I think what you said is really helpful in that.

Michael: 12:37

A lot of times in conflict because that's where this really, really, really kinda where the rub is, like, with conflict and where you're not willing to address conflict because you're about trying to keep the peace. And so codependency and peace and kinda peace faking and some of those dynamics that play into that, where we might be too quick to kinda, like, throw codependency on that. And I think that's the other kinda turn that I wanna make in the conversation of not using this flippantly. I think because and and we'll get into this throughout this miniseries because we're also gonna be talking about narcissism and generalized anxiety disorder. But a lot of times, we use these psychological terms as, like, a personality profile.

Michael: 13:19

The we we use these things flippantly. We we they become buzzwords instead of trying to explain something to somebody. It's just, oh, they're just codependent. Okay. What does that even mean?

Michael: 13:30

Explain that to me. And so, like, I even in counseling, to bring it back into the context of the counseling room where when people just in passing throw that label out there, just asking them much to what you were saying earlier, Beth, okay. What does that mean? Like, how are you identifying that as a codependent behavior? Like, what Mhmm.

Michael: 13:47

You know what I mean? And I think what's interesting, what I found and, Beth, I don't know about you and your counseling experience. But, typically, when you challenge people on these labels, they really can't they can't articulate. It because it's so, like, they've regurgitated what they've heard, and they they just use rinse and repeat, and it's just what they do. And then I found, usually, when I ask those questions, they really can't articulate how that person is legitimately being or exhibiting codependent behaviors or characteristics.

Michael: 14:17

Any thoughts on that?

Beth: 14:18

Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting. I I generally agree with you, and I think that I rarely use the term codependent in counseling. Honestly, I deal with a lot of those behaviors in counseling. They come up in terms of people, like you said, relating to conflict or other areas where they are overly focused on keeping the peace or do have some of those traits and characteristics present.

Beth: 14:45

But I'm I don't necessarily find it helpful to use the term codependency, but rather to kinda dig down into what the issue is. And so we'll talk biblically about, yes, we we are supposed to be people who, wherever possible, we do live at peace with people, but not to enable sin, not to contribute to dysfunction, not to contribute to problematic patterns in ourselves or in other people. And so when we are engaging in that in an unhealthy way, in a sinful way, then we need to change course. We need to take it back to the lord and recognize he calls us to live a certain way and that, oh, we so let's go to conflict for a second. Let's assume a person is engaging in conflict, and both parties have unhealthy ways of interacting in that space, either trying to keep the peace too much or maybe one person leads the other to more codependent behaviors.

Beth: 15:43

In those instances, it's helping that counselee or that client recognize keeping the peace here maybe isn't the right ultimate goal. Right? That may not be the thing that is most honoring to the Lord. The most honoring thing is, yes, that I'm I need to be kind. I need to stay calm.

Beth: 16:02

I need to be able to engage in a dialogue potentially with this person about the problem that we're having, but I don't need to try to ultimately keep this person happy for lack of a better word. And that, I think, is a much more fruitful discussion than to get into a really lengthy dialogue about, oh, you you're just codependent, and this is a pattern that and kinda coming out of that way. I think sometimes we can and we know this from diagnostic labels anyways, but we we can treat. Once we label something, it almost becomes a box we get stuck in, and it's this is the way I see myself then. I'm always gonna struggle with this because I'm a codependent person, and there may be some truth to that.

Beth: 16:47

Some people will struggle with codependent behaviors throughout their life, but to have it as a primary identity anchor can also be unhelpful and narrow their viewpoint and their give them kind of a tunnel vision for how to move forward. So I often we'll talk about the issues in codependent behaviors, but not really spend a lot of time labeling and talking about the category.

Michael: 17:15

Yeah. That's really good, and and I I appreciate that bit. Because much to what you were saying, it it becomes overwhelmingly unproductive when we focus on a label. And I think that's kinda where the misconception is. We throw out diagnostic, but it's diagnostic in the sense of a descriptor.

Michael: 17:34

It doesn't explain the behavior. Right. And you like, there's a huge difference between description and explanation. Describing something a way does not explain, which is kinda where, biblically speaking, that's where scripture brings a different diagnostical tool. They're not examining the fruit.

Michael: 17:55

It examines the root.

Beth: 17:57

And what's interesting, though, is what you articulated is true, but that is not the understanding that the general public has, I don't think. I think that most people assume if you have a label, it is an explanation. It's like, why are you struggling? I have this diagnosis. No.

Beth: 18:15

That's a description. That's not a reason. So there's misconceptions about all of that that I think can lead people to feel like I just do this because I'm codependent. That describes what you're talking about, but it doesn't actually as you said, it doesn't explain it. It doesn't explain why that developed, but scripture does help us understand where our affections, our hearts can go awry, and it gives us a solution through Christ.

Michael: 18:40

Yeah. That's really good. And, Seth, I appreciate it. Like I said, we're gonna do a couple other ones. So we're trying to keep these to just a quick, let's talk about it.

Michael: 18:47

How does it make sense? Let's be aware of it as believers when we use these these diagnostical psychological labels. We're not called to use them as the culture use them much to what you just said, Beth, that, unfortunately, the culture really does apply it as if it is a it is an articulation of this person. And there's nothing it's who they are. It's like the equivalent of saying, if I have cancer, like, I have cancer.

Michael: 19:11

Like, it it is what it is. Like, the you know what I mean? It's just this absolute reality of this person as if it's something that can't be changed. And so we just have to keep in mind. And but I think to to all of that, I I think an opportunity for the gospel, right, when we're sharing as believers, when we're engaging in the world, whether that's us as counselors in the counseling room or we're enjoying Vancouver, Washington up in Pacific Northwest or wherever we find ourselves engaging with people.

Michael: 19:41

And much like Beth said earlier is that the we live in a broken fallen world, and they're suffering all around us. They're suffering in our own souls. It's not very helpful to walk around and use these psychological labels. Now we can use them to meet someone where they are, but to me, those are opportunities to really articulate the gospel. And that's the beautiful thing is because the reality is there is a codependency from creature to creator.

Michael: 20:06

Let's talk about that. So Yeah. It's just a misplaced codependency where kind of Paul talks about that in Romans chapter 1 that it's that great exchange of worshiping and serving creation as opposed to the creator. So everything that we're gonna talk about is a direct reflection of that theological reality. So just to encourage those and thank you.

Michael: 20:26

And, again, I would encourage anyone who has any other inquiries as far as topics and different things that you'd like to talk about. And I remember talking to Beth when we were in Salem. Just because of her background, I I would love to put out, like, 20 or 30 or maybe if we're getting really audacious, we could do 50. Anyway, a lot of different podcast episodes that really confront the psychological labels that our culture is just inundated with. And, unfortunately, it really peeds on our thinking and and our categories of thought and how we identify with people and really kinda how we ultimately judge people.

Michael: 20:59

Any final thoughts on that, Beth, just before we close?

Beth: 21:01

Yeah. No. I think everything you just shared was great. And I think I would just one thing I thought as you were talking was if someone comes into the counseling room with me and they're talking about codependency, that's the box they're using to talk about their behavior or someone else's behavior. It's not necessarily something I jump on to correct immediately.

Beth: 21:22

I really I frankly don't care if they wanna use the term. I am more interested in digging deep and helping them think through more of the why. Why is that happening? What is the biblical solution to it? So I have my own thoughts about the helpfulness of the term, but my primary desire is not to convince people they shouldn't use the word or the term or the label because I just also think that's not helpful.

Beth: 21:47

So trying to meet people where they are, but still get to the same place is the way I'm trying to approach it.

Michael: 21:53

No. That's really good. And, for those counselors out there, Beth just reminded us on what, good data gathering and listening is like to listen. Because once we gather that data, we can integrate that back into the conversation Yep. To to let them know, like, why it's not really helpful versus just dropping to Bob Newhart on stop it kind of thing.

Beth: 22:12

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Michael: 22:14

We don't have to do that. But thank you very much. Thank you guys for listening again. I would just encourage you to email topics that speak the truth. If there's anything else you'd like for us to talk about, we look forward to hearing you guys next time.

Michael: 22:25

See you later.