Michael: 00:00

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Michael: 00:00

Speak to truth listeners. Mike here, wanting to take a moment before the episode to cordially invite those who have been wanting to take the level one certification, but haven't had the opportunity. Truth renewed is offering a hybrid class where we will have 20 in person students and 30 online spots where you can join us virtually. Our setup will allow you to see and be seen and to hear and be heard. You'll be able to fully participate in class case studies and role plays as well as participate in your own group rooms when we break off into groups.

Michael: 00:28

For more information, please go to truth renewed.org on our certification page. Read through the process and instructions so you can start the application process. If you have any questions or need help with anything, please email us at training at truthrenewed.org, and we hope you can join us in September. Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello.

Michael: 01:07

Hello. Hello. We are back at the Call to Council Conference 2024, speak the truth as we've been doing over the last several episodes here. We've had this little miniseries for the Call to Council Conference. And as I've been doing faithfully here, I'm joined with some special guests.

Michael: 01:23

And, actually, I'm pretty excited about this episode because this is a a long overdue episode with a particular guest, but he's joined by a dude that I got to know and got to go to an escape room last night, which I think we had some grace. But, anyway, I am joined with Michael Schnitzer and Brett Smith. How are you guys doing?

Michael: 01:40

Doing great. Thanks for having us.

Michael: 01:42

Yeah. If we could just share a little bit about yourself, Michael, and then Brett likewise. Some of you may be familiar with Michael and the Gospel Recovery Network, others of you may not, and then also Brett's involvement in that as well. And then for those of you who are familiar with Michael Schnitzer and some of the history of a particular study that has been faithfully resurrected Yeah. And long overdue is the steps program and and and the steps of bible study.

Michael: 02:07

And we're gonna talk a little bit about that and try to promote that a little bit because it's a great study. As a matter of fact, that was Sean and I's initial sort of recovery. I mean, I remember back in 2012 when we went to Plano to sit with you and just as leaders. That was the first time I had a perfect bar, by the way.

Michael: 02:25

Oh, yeah.

Michael: 02:26

My first refrigerated protein bar.

Michael: 02:28

Oh, man.

Michael: 02:29

Yeah.

Michael: 02:29

Yeah. We love those.

Brett: 02:30

We talked about those this morning on the way here. I said, do you know that Costco has the peanut butter and the peanut butter chocolate bar?

Michael: 02:36

Bar. Are you talking about the

Michael: 02:37

perfect bar? The perfect

Michael: 02:38

bar. Yeah. That's the perfect bar preceded, I think. Yes.

Michael: 02:41

Perfect bar

Brett: 02:41

is what I'm talking about.

Michael: 02:43

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then they have the mini ones. Yes. The little 6 gram protein er ones.

Michael: 02:47

Yeah. Yeah. Those are anyway. Mhmm.

Michael: 02:49

The good content is probably better on that one.

Michael: 02:51

Yeah. Anyway, those are amazing bars, and I, because of you, Michael, that I now consume them Josh, I faithfully.

Michael: 02:59

That's so

Michael: 02:59

And I still have my Citizen's Cup, by the way.

Michael: 03:01

Such a joy to my heart.

Michael: 03:02

I hope so. I hope so. Awesome. Yeah. I'm getting sidetracked here, but it's worth it.

Michael: 03:05

It's worth it. I'm excited about this podcast. At any rate, again, just share a little bit about yourself, Michael, and then Brett will jump to you, man.

Michael: 03:11

Yeah. Michael Schnitzer. Currently, I serve as full time on staff at Citizens Church where I'm the recovery pastor. I've been on staff at Citizens Church for the last 10 years or its predecessor, which is the Plano Campus of The Village Church. And prior to that, before coming to Plano to start that campus as the recovery pastor was on staff at The Village Church at the main campus for 7 years and had led the recovery ministry there for 10 years.

Michael: 03:39

When the Village Church hired me back in 2007, I was in full time private practice as a licensed professional doing biblical counseling in the metroplex. And so that was my job prior to coming on staff. And kind of along the way, as I was making that transition from from Flower Mound to Plano, the idea was came about about Gospel Recovery Network. And so Gospel Recovery Network is now officially a nonprofit. We've been around for about 10 years, but I would say that we're still in our infancy.

Michael: 04:15

And so we don't know how much of gospel recovery network will be realized in my lifetime. I'm 56 now, but, hopefully, we can just have a good beginning here to, yeah, fulfill the vision of building out a network of like minded gospel resources that people can refer to and know that, hey, these resources, whether it be a counseling center, a treatment center, an eating disorders clinic, an abuse shelter, a church based recovery program, that they would know that that is a vetted resource and that they can have confidence that they can get good gospel help within those network resources.

Michael: 04:54

Oh, that's awesome. And we'll jump back to that. But in the meantime, Brett, share us a little bit about yourself, man.

Brett: 05:00

Yeah. So my name is Brett. I currently live in Louisville, Kentucky. Louisville. Louisville.

Brett: 05:05

I am a member at Third Avenue Baptist Church. I am slowly taking classes at Southern Seminary.

Michael: 05:11

Okay. Third Avenue. I know there's some professors that go there.

Brett: 05:14

Yeah. So Al Mohler goes there.

Michael: 05:15

Okay.

Brett: 05:15

And then Doctor Whitney.

Michael: 05:17

Okay.

Brett: 05:17

He's the spiritual disciplines. Yes. Trying to think if there's any other professors there. I know, like, doctor Pierre who's here. He's at Clifton.

Michael: 05:24

Yeah. And then you have Shriner who's at Clifton. That's what I'm saying. It's like you anyways.

Brett: 05:28

I think doctor Ware is at Clifton. Yeah. But, yeah, Louisville's wild. It's so cool having those professors pastoring like they are doing what they teach. So it's pretty cool.

Michael: 05:38

That is good

Michael: 05:38

to hear, by the way.

Brett: 05:39

Probably a 10 to 15 year plan with Southern, like, one class at a time here and there. I'm gonna take hermeneutics this summer.

Michael: 05:45

But you're doing a lot of ministry, though. It's not like you're just kinda twiddling your thumbs, just taking your time. I mean, you're you're grinding.

Brett: 05:52

Yep. Yeah. So I'm there as a member. I serve on our lay biblical counseling team, Faithfully Involved, Home Group, all the stuff, children's ministry, teach gospel project, which is awesome. It's a lot of fun.

Brett: 06:02

I help manage a construction business in Austin, Texas.

Michael: 06:06

Really?

Brett: 06:06

I do that remotely from my living room in Louisville. Yeah. And Monday, Tuesdays, I am in Chicago. Charles Simeon Trust is a para church ministry. They teach men and women how to preach, teach expositionally.

Brett: 06:20

So I am doing their Chicago course on preaching Monday, Tuesdays in Chicago. So each week, I either drive 5 hours there or fly there, spend Monday, Tuesday, come back home to Louisville. And then I also have the privilege of serving under Michael.

Michael: 06:35

I'll say that was my next question. How'd you get connected to this guy?

Brett: 06:38

Yeah. So pretty wild story. The short version is I was saved at a church in Tempe, Arizona about 11 years ago. I had been sober from alcohol since 12 years ago. So about a year into sobriety, what I told you I was a Christian, I'm convinced I was not a Christian even though I professed Jesus as my lord and savior.

Brett: 06:57

I went to church. I had started reading the Bible. But the more I read scripture, the more I sat under faithful preaching, the more I started to wrestle with what appeared to be conflicting worldviews and conflicting messages. And, again, short version, ended up hearing a sermon by Chandler, then I came across recovery and redemption cowritten by Chandler and Michael. Michael shares his story in there about also being involved in AA early on in his recovery and and as a believer, but being religiously involved in AA and then eventually coming out of that.

Brett: 07:32

Mhmm. And so I filled out the general contact form. This is 10 years ago for the Village Church website. And I said, hey. This is crazy because I live in another state.

Brett: 07:40

I only found out about you guys 2 weeks ago. And, yeah, there's no reason why he needs to respond to this. But if Michael would be willing to talk to me because I read in that book that he has been on this path before me and is now leading the gospel centered recovery ministry. And I'm trying to figure out is is this program that I thought the rest of my life was gonna be kinda built on even alongside my Christian faith, newfound faith. Yeah.

Brett: 08:05

I just don't know how this all plays nice in the sandbox or does not and just had a lot of questions. And I was seeking out Christian men in AA in the Tempe, Phoenix area, and the answers I was getting from them were not biblical. And so even as a baby believer, no theological training, very little biblical understanding and awareness of doctrine, all of it. I just was given discernment by God and knew that what they were telling me was not right. And so Michael graciously called me, I think, the day after I filled out the general contact form.

Brett: 08:39

And, yeah, he started discipling me. I would even say deprogramming me. And, yeah, just immediately was pointing me to the word of God, and it would just change my life literally from our first conversation. So eventually, got to move to Plano to be his intern for a year on staff when it was the Village Church Plano, and then eventually was hired as a recovery minister with him at Citizens Church. And then I went through some stuff personally that led me to move to Louisville about a year and a half ago.

Brett: 09:08

But now still even living there, gospel recovery network is getting some traction. I've been involved with GRN to varying degrees since I've known Michael. So kinda like the unofficial official intern for almost 10 years now. And so we've always been excited about it, and there's been times where it's okay. I think we're getting some momentum, but then there's a lot going on.

Brett: 09:31

We're busy and, I mean, life happens. But it just seems like in this recent season, in reconnecting, especially with me having moved to Louisville, the Lord is obviously at work, and it's just really exciting to where now it's okay, lord. What do we do to get what clearly is something that you're involved in up and running. So, yeah, that's where I'm at. It's just trying to figure out what this will look like and, yeah, just honestly honored to even be involved.

Michael: 10:01

That's awesome. That's great. Question, if you're in Tempe, Arizona Yeah. This was 10 years ago, so I don't I don't know if he was as well known as he is now. But Jeff Durbin

Brett: 10:14

Yeah. Okay.

Michael: 10:14

Yeah.

Brett: 10:15

So he's a bastard apology.

Michael: 10:16

Yeah. Okay.

Brett: 10:17

Yeah. So I Do you

Michael: 10:18

ever see him out there in the streets engaging with people?

Brett: 10:21

I never witnessed that. I did interact with him somewhat long time ago. I actually dated a girl who went to his church, and she actually was saved when he was before pastoring Apologia, a preacher at a treatment center.

Michael: 10:35

Yeah. That's yeah. Him and, yeah, Luke and those guys were doing that, and then then they went

Michael: 10:39

and yeah.

Brett: 10:40

Yep. Yeah. So I I was saved at Redemption Church, their Tempe location, and I think we were probably only 2 or 3 miles from where, at least at that time, apology, I was meeting. But, yeah, redemption, I had no idea. The Lord just led me to an absolutely incredible faithful church.

Brett: 10:56

At that time, Ricardo Stewart was a preaching pastor. Tim Anderson was counseling pastor. And just, yeah, I couldn't have been blessed with a better church to walk into at 27 years old, as lost as you can be. And, yeah, they were so gracious. And even as they discipled me and it was, like, in partnership with Michael, discipling me even long distance, and then kinda helped me transition to Texas eventually to work with him.

Brett: 11:21

It was sweet.

Michael: 11:22

What's funny is you're actually a case study for the reality of gospel recovery network.

Michael: 11:27

There you go.

Michael: 11:28

That's awesome. He's just, like, sitting here explaining. I'm like, gospel Recovery Network. Like, that's the heart that just naturally happened. Yep.

Michael: 11:36

That's really cool. That's really cool. And speaking of gospel recovery network, there's actually a particular curriculum that goes along with that as part of gospel recovery network as an equipping piece. Correct, Michael?

Michael: 11:49

Yes. There's a curriculum called steps. Oh, there it is. There it is. The gospel changes everything.

Michael: 11:54

It is a curriculum that we wrote while I was at the village church. So we started off in 2004 just really under the consultation of a ministry called celebrate recovery. And so we kinda looked around and tried to decide, you know, who had put the most together in terms of equipping the church to, yeah, bring Christ back into recovery and recovery back into the church is kind of where I think God has used them profoundly. And so for the 1st 3 years, we were at Celebrate Recovery, and we are forever grateful to Celebrate Recovery for just giving us the wisdom on how to get started. But after 3 years, we just realized it was kind of like wearing somebody else's clothes.

Michael: 12:38

Mhmm. If you put on your dad's clothes, it was just it just didn't really

Michael: 12:41

No fit.

Michael: 12:42

Fit us. And so we began to develop our own curriculum, which ended up being steps. That curriculum was published later, I think, in 2014 by Lifeway. And so I think just with be as candid as possible. I think we are a bit naive publishing it with a publisher and believing that a ministry like that, because it really is a ministry Yeah.

Michael: 13:03

Could get traction without a significant amount of support. And if so, if you look at something like Celebrate Recovery, there's a ton that they do to support ministry. If you look at something like Regen, come that came out of Watermark. They they just do a lot to support that ministry. The village at that time just wanted to be a resourcing church, and so I think we thought we could just hand it over to Lifeway and then it would just take off on its own, package it in a box, and that's just not the reality of the type of ministry that it is.

Michael: 13:31

So after 7 years, unbeknownst to me because I was now at Citizens, we tried to go purchase the steps material because you kinda lose control of it when you publish it with a publisher. We couldn't buy it anymore. And so this is a couple of years ago. And so all of a sudden, this is the material that we're using at Citizens for the ministry. It's curriculum that we wrote.

Michael: 13:53

And so come to find out that they had stopped publishing it, contacted the village church, and just said, hey. We wanna work out an agreement with you. And so since that time, the village church is not currently using steps. So they licensed us to have a perpetual, irrevocable license to edit, distribute, license other churches to be able to use the material. And I think, you know, they may have plans to kind of edit it as well and kinda use it or somehow bring it into their current care structure.

Michael: 14:24

I'm not sure what their their plans are with it. But in rewriting it, it was way bigger of a project than I thought. I mean, you're looking at the stack of the the bible study, the mentor guide.

Michael: 14:37

Yeah.

Michael: 14:38

The assessment guide, and that doesn't even have the leader guide. So to edit all of that and we also expanded it.

Michael: 14:45

Yeah. I mean, even the assessment looks a lot

Michael: 14:48

It's more robust for

Michael: 14:49

sure. Yeah.

Michael: 14:50

Yeah. Yeah. We went through that again. Also expanded. We moved it from a 12 week to a 13 week discipleship program.

Michael: 14:59

We added a week 5, which is on trauma and just preparing people for assessments. We also add what we call our steps prep guide, which is just that. It is an orientation to steps and a preparation for people to enter into that intensive discipleship program. As I mentioned, it has a teaching component to it. It has a small group component to it.

Michael: 15:23

It has homework, and sometimes that homework is bible study and some of that is working on your assessment, and then you have a 1 on 1 mentoring component. So sick to successfully navigate steps with a as a participant, it takes about 7 hours of you your week. So we call it intensive discipleship, and there's a reason why we call it intensive discipleship because it, number 1, requires a lot of you, and it tends to press into areas that we would rather avoid.

Michael: 15:54

Yeah.

Michael: 15:55

So when we are communicating about steps and we're just communicating it to the general population when within our church because it is a main vein of discipleship within our church, we say that steps are basic principles of spiritual formation that help keep us healthy as we grow in maturity in Christ. We also will say it this way. We will say it helps us get traction in our relationship with Christ by addressing unresolved issues from the past, uproot current patterns of coping that aren't very fruitful to set us up to live fruitful lives for the kingdom. And, yeah, and so it's it's truly basic discipleship. It has a biblical counseling thread throughout the whole thing.

Michael: 16:42

It is also very culturally engaging, so it engages the non gospel recovery culture. Yeah. And so it's pretty comprehensive when you think about and it's also about reforming the church to know that the gospel is the answer, that we have something more powerful in the gospel than everything that the world has to offer. So it's got a a gospel reform. It's got a gospel mission aspect to it by speaking to the culture in a language that they understand.

Michael: 17:11

No. That's really good. And, again, with all the updates and modifications that you made to the material to make it more robust, what I remember going through it and just how impactful it was in our church. And interestingly enough, all the leaders that went through when Sean and I did it back in, like, 20 14 or whenever it was. We had 12 leaders go through it with us, and now they're all biblical counselors at at the church.

Michael: 17:37

I love that.

Michael: 17:38

We did 2 or 3 iterations of steps at that point, and then, we transitioned. And then I took a pastoral position at a church as a substitute pastor in Keller, the church in Keller. And so we kinda stepped out of that, and so there was no recovery ministry. And then all of those people just started pursuing biblical counseling. They started coming to the conference, and so it's just and the the reason why I bring that up, a, because it's really cool story for the reality of what steps encourage.

Michael: 18:03

But what you've built into this for 13 weeks is the idea of advocacy in one anothering in a sense that, you know because, again, to your point, we we usually suppress and isolate when those things are happening versus, man, when I'm struggling, like, I I wanna open up and I wanna become vulnerable. Right. You know what I mean? And so to bring somebody into my struggle

Michael: 18:22

To show your pain.

Michael: 18:23

Right, sort of a a functional Galatians 6 1 through 3, sorta, you know, structure and situation, but you're doing it in such a way that it's inevitably and undoubtedly going to impact and affect the the the mentor, the person who's going through it to where, like, it's just it's it has a profound effect. Yeah. And I just I I think going back to the point of gospel recovery network is it reveals the freedom in the gospel. Absolutely. So I I I love that.

Michael: 18:48

What are your thoughts just going through this and been with him since what what I hear 2,009?

Brett: 18:53

Yeah. Probably 2,013, I think. Yeah. 10, 11 years. So I've been through steps multiple times personally and then have got to lead it multiple times as well, even do some teaching alongside Michael.

Brett: 19:06

I think what I love the most about steps, Michael talked about, yes, there is the recovery emphasis. And a lot of people, because it's called steps, which is intentional Yeah. They immediately think recovery program. Yeah. And we always try to say it's bigger than that.

Brett: 19:20

It's primarily discipleship. Yeah. And then there's this biblical counseling thread. Like you said, there is a focus, on recovery. What I love about it is especially thinking of people who might be younger in their faith or or maybe they just haven't ever been discipled or benefited from theological education.

Brett: 19:39

When I learned, okay. I understand gospel, high level, good news. I'm gonna be with the Lord forever. He's with me even right now. We're gonna be in paradise.

Brett: 19:47

It's gonna be amazing. But when you're struggling right now

Michael: 19:51

It's an everyday process. Recovery.

Brett: 19:53

Yeah. And it's okay. I'm a Christian. Life is really messy. I'm still sinning.

Brett: 19:58

I still struggle in these ways. And so god used Michael. He used steps to show me how, yeah, high level good news. Yes. Amen.

Brett: 20:08

Also, on the ground, practical good news that is incredibly relevant and helpful to our everyday struggles. And so, like, STEP shows you if guilt and shame is just something that is wrecking you. The enemy is using it to rob you of joy. Yeah. You will learn in steps how the gospel applies specifically to that struggle.

Brett: 20:28

If it's resentment, if it's sexual morality, if it is abuse or even the effects of someone else's sin against you, trauma, you learn from scripture, not just these platitudes or, hey. This sounds great. You get the word of God bearing down specifically on what you are struggling with, and that's honestly what has brought me so much joy as a believer is when I get to experience God's word applied by the spirit, and it is just so obvious that this is a true story of the world, and God is so good, and he cares so much, and he has freedom for us. That's just what the lord, I mean, has really used steps to blow my mind in the best way. And then even as we talk about it, like, we're here at the Called to Counsel Conference.

Brett: 21:15

We've got a booth for Gospel Recovery Network. I've had so many conversations today. We're just talking about these things, and I'm seeing, like, light bulbs go on in people that I'm talking with. Just brings me so much joy, and it's so much fun. And it's just evidence that god is who he says he is, and his word is true.

Brett: 21:34

And it's all profitable for everything, for life, for teaching

Michael: 21:38

Yeah.

Brett: 21:38

All of it. And so, yeah, I just couldn't be more stoked about it.

Michael: 21:41

No. That's great. Just a couple couple thoughts, and then we'll, we'll wrap up here. But the the first five weeks are still that solid theological foundation. Right?

Michael: 21:52

Just that gospel framework?

Michael: 21:53

Yeah. So no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. And so he is the wisdom of God, and he is the power of God. And doing any sort of spiritual practices apart from him, it just ends up being empty religion. And so what we wanna do is we wanna take time on the front end, and we start in Genesis 1.

Michael: 22:15

So we're not assuming that you I think it benefits the mature believer, but it also starts with the person who's never read their bible. And we start by introducing people to God, which is a beautiful thing. You know? We get the upper the privilege of being able to do that. But we spend time in creation, the way God created things to be, the way that it's supposed to be, you know, and then the fall, like, what went wrong, and then how God has intervened to make things right through the gospel of Jesus Christ and through yeah.

Michael: 22:46

And and then what's the result of that? So what's a result of putting my faith in Christ? Why that's so important, you know, everywhere? But here in the bible belt is that there's not a real cost right now to being a Christian. It's increasing.

Michael: 23:03

But, to be

Michael: 23:04

Functionally, it's not. For sure. Yeah.

Michael: 23:06

Like, there's not a lot of persecute. It's just so everybody's a Christian, but nobody really knows what that means. And so we wanna spend we don't want to give people empty promises or false hope. We want to say, okay, if you've responded to the gospel and faith, this is the result. So this gives you, like, something to be able to root in, to have security in as we now begin to look at the difficult realities of your life.

Michael: 23:30

So it it it builds Well,

Michael: 23:31

you have to apply it to something. Otherwise, what are you doing?

Michael: 23:33

Yep. We want them to have security as they face those things.

Michael: 23:37

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I remember the first time I saw the word Vivify, and I'm like, Yeah. Vivify.

Michael: 23:43

Interesting.

Brett: 23:44

And I

Michael: 23:44

did a little case study on Vivify and just man, it's

Michael: 23:47

a really legit word. It's beautiful.

Michael: 23:49

It is. So for those of you who don't like to read, download an app. Figure it out. Like, you're gonna come across some terms. But I like that juxtaposition and sort of that wrestle with, like, it appeals to those who are in recovery who so there's that terminology, but it also introduces gospel terminology and vernacular and scripture and everything.

Michael: 24:07

It's just a it's just a beautiful sort of compression of merging those two things together to to kind of forge that gospel reality because it is. It's it's a recovery. Otherwise, we're dying to our old self and, like, I think that's the theological reality that I love about the material, is that it it moves beyond addiction and just understanding a biblical anthropology, understanding sin and just the reality of, you know, redemption and consummation and the already not yet and sort of how you've sort of compressed that into just our daily lives. That just because we're Christians, like, both of you just, you know, alluded to, just because we're Christians, like, we still I mean, Romans 1 is for believers too. Like, we still suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Michael: 24:48

We still we still struggle with worshiping and create worshiping and serving creation as opposed to the creator. I mean, that that's sort of the whole disposition. That's the whole issue in recovering from and reorienting our focus. And so I I I think that's what I love so much about this. And so I'm so thankful that you've resurrected it and that you were diligent in trying to retrieve it and and and now bring it bring it back.

Michael: 25:11

Yeah. And I just say one last thing just in terms of the culture. Having spent 3 years in Alcoholics Anonymous, if there is a people group that I am burdened for, in other words, that I want so much for, it would be those in the non gospel recovery culture. Because there's this belief in the culture that that I'm on the road to happy destiny if I'm sober. And so to believe that you're on the road to happy destiny and not yet know Jesus, those two things can't be hand in hand.

Michael: 25:45

And so I'm burdened for those who may be believing falsely that their sobriety makes them okay with God instead of the gospel bridging that gap between. And so I love the men and women in in secular recovery. I am burdened for them. And so a lot of the curriculum is written in a way that's in a language that they understand, but then redeems that language, but brings those truths within a biblical framework and then applies them within a gospel context. It honors what is true about what they know, but then brings the fullness of that as it's known in the gospel.

Michael: 26:22

Yeah. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Brett, any any final any final words before we conclude and and drop a little plug for gospel Recovery Network?

Brett: 26:30

Yeah. I think one other thing that, at least to me, was surprising and brilliant and amazing in recent years was how effective steps can be as a tool for evangelism.

Michael: 26:44

Yep.

Brett: 26:44

And so it is comprehensive discipleship for the Christian. The beauty of the way it's laid out, having those first 4, 5 weeks of laying the foundation like Michael talked about, you can invite the nonbeliever, and they can go through that. And you can teach them everything that Michael was just sharing the overarching story of scripture, the gospel as the remedy. And then what are the benefits of having repented and trusted in Christ? You're justified.

Brett: 27:08

You're adopted. You're filled with the spirit. You're gonna be sanctified. And so it's amazing because a nonbeliever can go through all of that and say they come to the end of the laying of foundation phase of steps. And they're like, hey.

Brett: 27:20

I'm just not quite there yet. I don't know if I believe in Jesus yet. From there, you don't continue into the assessment because the whole point of the assessment is by faith in god, you're now taking your hurts and hang ups to god and asking him to do what only he can do. And so if someone's just not there, they're like, hey. I don't believe this yet.

Brett: 27:38

There's no point really to go beyond in steps in that way. Yeah. We've talked about, like, in the gospel of John, the refrain, come and see. Come and see. And so say that non Christian gets to the end of the lane of foundation phase and and they're just not there, which we would never would wanna force anyone to believe.

Brett: 27:55

Obviously, only the Lord can make this a reality. We can just continue exploring the claims of Christianity, the claims of Christ with them. And so, yeah, just the evangelistic aspect of it too just kinda came out of nowhere for me at least, and just made me appreciate it that much more.

Michael: 28:13

Oh, that's good. That's good. So, lastly, is this available to purchase

Michael: 28:17

now? To explain yeah. Steps is available through licensing through Citizens Church.

Michael: 28:25

Okay. So you So I can drop that. I'll I'll look at the website, and I'll I'll drop a link, a hyperlink for those. Because I usually put Amazon links when it's resources, if they're available. So I'll go that route.

Michael: 28:35

Okay? You

Michael: 28:35

can license it through Citizens Church for free. Now the local church, whoever is, licensing it, is responsible for printing the materials. That's the cost, is the printing of the materials. But the license itself does not cost anything. Where Gospel Recovery Network comes in and even if you're a local church, Citizens Church invites other churches.

Michael: 28:57

We have training a couple of times a year where people can come in and go through that steps intensive and become familiar with the content so that they can decide whether that's something that they wanna implement in the local church context. If somebody is wanting local training, you know, wanting someone to come there and train them, then that's where gospel recovery network comes in and does that training for fee where they can come into Citizens Church and do it relatively and expend like, I think it's $50 for an intensive, so it's it's basically free. It just pays for the cost of the books and a meal.

Michael: 29:32

Yeah. No. That's great. Because I so I went to gospel recovery network and and saw on the equipping page that it was the the steps material and just sort of the cost to have somebody come and do the teaching and and kind of equipping piece of that. So I'll put that in the show notes.

Michael: 29:46

And then lastly, so as far as the mission of Gospel Recovery Network, obviously, partnering with other organizations, what's the best way for people who like, man, this sounds great. I really would like to be a part of this. How do they connect with you guys? I I thought I saw something on the website, but anything outside of what I could just put in a hyperlink is what would be the process to connect with you guys and to become a partner, whether it's a church who wants to partner with you or somebody who's got some material who wants to kinda partner in that sense. What's that process?

Brett: 30:18

So I would say that the mission of Gospel Recovery Network is very broad, and it's beautiful. And I hope that all of it gets to unfold, like, before our eyes by the grace of god. The easiest way to just get connected with us, if you go to the website, www.gospelrecoverynetwork.com, there is a phone number at the bottom of the page. Currently, that is my cell phone number. There's also an email info at gospelrecoverynetwork.com.

Brett: 30:43

Because GRN's mission is so broad and there's so many different things we hope to do, Just getting the conversation started.

Michael: 30:50

Yeah. That's the seal of your statement. You put your cell phone number in there. That's fantastic. We're we're

Brett: 30:54

still figuring

Michael: 30:55

out Yeah.

Brett: 30:55

Exactly what Yeah. Process is going to be. Yeah. But, honestly, just starting the dialogue, call me, text me, send an email. I'm going to connect you with Michael.

Brett: 31:04

We'll talk with you. Hey. Are you a local church that wants to be trained on how to implement steps? Are you a local church that wants to be trained on just how to train lay biblical counselors? There's a lot of things that we wanna do.

Brett: 31:16

So just reach out via email, via phone call. We'll figure out what it is exactly you guys are hoping to do. And then without a doubt, we can come alongside you and, yeah, just help do whatever it is the Lord has in store. And, yeah, there's so many different things that we hope to see happen. And, yeah, that first step, just reach out to us and we'll take it from there.

Michael: 31:36

That's awesome.

Michael: 31:36

We're we're doing couple of things right now just in

Snetzer: 31:39

terms of what what we like to see even from this conference, and that is opportunities to equip churches. The second thing is that we're

Michael: 31:46

we're forming an advisory board. So just people who have expertise in some of these areas, we'd love to have those kinds of people on our advisory board. Those who would want to support, the network financially, find out more about that vision. We would love to sit down and talk to them as the reality of ministry is they cost money.

Michael: 32:08

Yeah. Yeah. Care cost. No. That's true.

Michael: 32:10

It's very good. Awesome. Guys, thank you so much. Michael, Brett, a pleasure. Again, guys, check out their stuff and check out the the show notes.

Michael: 32:18

All all the information will be there if you wanna connect with them, as Brett mentioned, and how to do that. And and then also, if there's any subsequent things that you'd like to hear, things that you'd like us to talk about, please email us at topics that speak the truth. Thank you for listening. We'll see you guys next time.