Michael: 00:00

Hello. Hello. Hello. Speak to truth listeners. Mike here, wanting to take a moment before the episode to cordially invite those who have been wanting to take the level 1 certification, but haven't had the opportunity.

Michael: 00:09

Well, truth renewed is offering a hybrid class where we will have 20 in person students and 30 online spots where you can join us virtually. Our setup will allow you to see and be seen and to hear and be heard. You'll be able to fully participate in class case studies and role plays as well as participate in your own group rooms when we break off into groups. For more information, please go to truth renewed.org on our certification page. Read through the process and instructions so you can start the application process.

Michael: 00:38

If you have any questions or need help with anything, please email us at training at truth renewed.org, and we hope you can join us in September. Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello.

Michael: 01:08

We are back. Call to Council Conference 2024 here in Fort Worth, Texas at Doxology Bible Church. There's a lot of people present at the ABC conference. That's been very encouraging, very exciting. And we are on the last day of the conference.

Michael: 01:22

But this is 1 of many conversations with 1 of our special guests who has been a part of Speak the Truth on numerous occasions. I'm joined with Robert Chong, gospel care ministries. Robert, how are we doing, brother?

Robert: 01:33

Doing great, man. Thanks for having me back.

Michael: 01:35

Yeah. It's always a pleasure. Robert and I were talking just some scriptures that we've been meditating on, and Robert shared that he's been really focused on Psalm 25 just over some time and meditating on the reality and implications of what this Psalm is talking about. And so we wanted to share it with you to our listeners, our counselors, our pastors, and our local church leaders and just share what this looks like of getting into the word, abiding in Christ, understanding these things, and then how this naturally pours out in our local church context at the staff level, elder level, pastor level, and then how it, plays into just the body of Christ and how we all abide together. But we wanted to start with scripture because that's where it begins.

Michael: 02:13

So, Robert, you wanna lead us through Psalm 25, brother?

Robert: 02:15

Yeah. We're just gonna cover a portion of it, but give some backstory to my meditations recently on Psalm 25. As as I'm getting older, I'm always confronted with unknowns. Right? And so Psalm 25 has been a recent companion that has blessed me.

Robert: 02:32

And the beautiful thing about scripture, it being living and active, is that oftentimes, God will meet you in different ways Mhmm. With Yes.

Michael: 02:39

He does.

Robert: 02:40

Familiar passages. Right? But in terms of thinking about where is god taking us, how should we steward our lives, how do we respond to uncertainties of life? What do we do in the waiting? And also encountering things that we would never ask for, but the Lord providentially has brought us into and through particular aspects of life.

Robert: 03:02

As I was reading Psalm 25 verse 10, it made me stop and reflect. And just allow me to read it from ESV. And it and the Lord says all the paths of the Lord are steadfast love and faithfulness for those who keep his covenant and his testimonies. And when I read that first part, all of the paths of the Lord are steadfast love and faithfulness. I just closed my eyes, took a deep breath, and tried to imagine what that looks like visually, but also to experience that in my heart and soul, but also to be comforted in knowing that regardless of where my good shepherd takes me, whether through the dark valleys or on the mountain tops, but through the the mundane of life as well, That all of his paths are steadfast, love, and faithfulness.

Robert: 03:51

So I began to chew on that. And I said, well, what are some of the things that I can take from that? And the first 1 is that the Lord has invited me to trust him because he's a good God. And regardless of where and how he shepherds me, there's an opportunity to experience his steadfast love. And, that takes me to another passage that I dwell on often in Ephesians 3, Paul's prayer that we would that the spirit within us would have us to experience the height and the depth and the breadth and with the love of Christ.

Robert: 04:25

And so as the Lord is leading me and all of his people in his faithfulness and in the steadfast love. I believe 1 of the things he desires for us is to actually know and experience his love and his faithfulness in tangible ways. But but as I as I continue to go through verse 13, his soul, the 1 who who fears the lord, his soul shall abide in well-being. And I was having a conversation at the conference at our booth about, an individual with chronic pain and a chronic condition. And we the conversation ended up with a passage that talks about even though our bodies are wasting away, our souls are being renewed day by day.

Robert: 05:10

And that comes about through us following Jesus on his paths of righteousness, Psalm 23 verse 3, but also experiencing the steadfast, faithful, enduring love. And but then verse 15 says my eyes are ever towards the Lord for he will pluck my feet out of the net. Even though in this context and later on it talks about the Lord delivering us from troubles. In good times and bad times, the Lord wants us to look up and to have our eyes ever towards the Lord, and that feeds into Psalm 26 verse 3, and I'll stop there. And Psalm 26 verse 3, it says, for your steadfast love is before my eyes.

Robert: 05:53

I go, oh, that's so beautiful. Just think about oh, let me just finish reading. I get so excited. For your steadfast love is before my eyes and I walk in your faithfulness. So the psalmist is keeping these 2 themes hand in hand.

Robert: 06:06

But the Lord says, no, cast your gaze upon me. Set your eyes on my steadfast love and walk with me in my faithfulness. Not your faithfulness. As many times we're unfaithful. Yeah.

Robert: 06:18

Every day we are unfaithful. So anyway

Michael: 06:20

I appreciate that in verse 14 even in that, the friendship of the lord is for those who fear him. How often do we really consider the reality that there there's a relational dynamic of friendship there? And then the second part, and he makes known to them his covenant. The reality like, in our hearts because you can go to, like, in verse 17 is he makes his covenant known to to them. But then in verse 17, the troubles of my heart enlarge bring me out of my distress.

Michael: 06:43

So there's this constant tug of, like you pointed out, just like our gaze and how we're fixed and and the path before us. And that's what I appreciated a minute ago when you're reading through it is sometimes his path is covered with very fearful things observationally.

Robert: 07:00

Mhmm.

Michael: 07:00

But that's what I appreciate about verse 17. Bring me out of my distress. Not remove not remove it from me, but bring me through it. So you're with me. I have to trust, going back to the trusting in him, that this doesn't look good, what's before me, but I trust you.

Michael: 07:16

The waters, like you mentioned, the valley and the hilltop and our experiences, but it's just that it's like that ordinary obedience that's in there. What does our path really look like? Mhmm. Because there's always a lot before us. Mhmm.

Michael: 07:29

And what are we introducing into our path that really keeps our eyes off of him, which is really the point of what he's saying here is to keep our eyes on him. So

Robert: 07:38

Well, even look at verse 18, consider my affliction and my troubles and forgive all my sins. And so when you put all that together, as you mentioned, those tend to draw our eyes away from the lord Yeah. For various reasons.

Michael: 07:53

Yeah. And I but I appreciate about that. It's just he's being honest because, like, with a friend, when we when we trust people not that we're putting our trust in people, but there is that like, when I trust somebody, I'm gonna be more vulnerable, and I'm gonna share my weaknesses with them. And relationally speaking, that's what the the psalm is encouraging us to do with the lord is in all of our weaknesses because as we're traveling the path, if we don't put our trust in him, we will fall away.

Robert: 08:22

That's right.

Michael: 08:23

We will fall away because it's the adversity that awaits us on the path. Like, we can observe it. But if we if we observe it in the fear, the way that we interpret it is just we're missing out what the lord has on the other side of that for him and with him and to him.

Robert: 08:40

Well, that's why I was so blessed by Jeremy's session Oh, yeah. Morning that the Lord uses affliction to create longings in our hearts for him that leads us to pursue him and so that we can receive his comfort.

Michael: 08:56

Yeah. And that's the irony of faith. It's just and, well, the irony of trusting him too is just, like, how in the world can, through affliction, bring me peace and more trust and understanding that I legitimately understand your loving kindness and your faithfulness?

Robert: 09:11

And god knows that we struggle with this, so that's why he gives us verses like verse 10. All of my paths are steadfast love and faithfulness. Yeah. And so it's will have a lifetime of clinging to that but also wrestling with that. Is that true?

Robert: 09:25

Yes. It's true. Is it true? Yes. It's true.

Robert: 09:28

And the lord knows what we need, so he offered his living word

Michael: 09:33

to us. That's good. That's good. And so the the encouragement in that is, obviously, as we put that in the local church context with the body and being able to encourage 1 another, the 1 anothering of scripture, encouraging each other in the word, not just practical helps when our brothers are our brothers and sisters are experiencing certain things that we wanna be helpful in what they're going through. But how often are we encouraging them in the word?

Michael: 09:59

How often are we sitting down and getting into the scriptures with them? And and to a large degree, I would argue that's bearing their burden with them is that you're going into scripture with them

Robert: 10:11

Absolutely.

Michael: 10:11

And where they are on the trail Mhmm. On the path, because that's really, like, really this teach me your paths.

Robert: 10:19

Right.

Michael: 10:19

Right? That's Psalm 25. And so that's the beautiful thing about about the body is when we come together and whether we're meeting and this is for pastors too. Oftentimes, as pastors and church leaders, we go in and and we'll sit there and we'll listen to what's going on with the person. And we wanna be empathetic, and we wanna be sympathetic to their situation.

Michael: 10:39

We wanna have that deployed compassion. But how often does it terminate into the word versus just listening? And then I don't know. To me, I've just always enjoyed sitting down with brothers and sisters, not just in our small groups, but just 1 on 1 where we're meeting with people and being able to sit down just as Robert and I are doing now and just considering god's word with each other, and it naturally brings about the things that we're struggling with. It reveals our weaknesses, if we're being honest.

Michael: 11:09

And who's gonna be the first 1 to share that? And then now all of a sudden, we're on the path together.

Robert: 11:15

Yeah. Unfortunately, some of the some of my conversation with pastors, in their honesty, have shared with me, they hesitate to open the word when they're meeting with people. And I asked why and what reasons keep them from doing that. And they said fear Fear that if they do open it up and God doesn't do anything, then they would know what to do next. And so that's the beauty of the ministry of the word is that it's not about our competency.

Robert: 11:46

Yeah. But it's about the the living word of god through that's animated by the spirit of God. As we're in Christ, that actually brings about a supernatural encounter.

Michael: 12:00

Yeah.

Robert: 12:01

And that's why ministry requires faith because the best thing that we have to bear as we seek to love and shepherd and comfort people is is God himself and God made it, ordained it so that we come into his presence through his word, through prayer, through his people.

Michael: 12:21

Yeah. That's good. And and so for those of you out there and just like Robert said of just grappling with that fear of not wanting to open up the word because you're struggling with the competency of the moment and being able to to rightly apply or bring the word. But I think that's the beauty of the word to your point. The power is not in you opening the word and it's the exposition of the word before the like, it's you're not that's not what that moment's for in that sense.

Michael: 12:47

But if that's what the pastor is used to doing when it's usually a monologue and you're preaching and you're versus sitting down That's

Robert: 12:54

right.

Michael: 12:54

Compassion, instead of a competency, there's a compassion in. You're not sitting there in that moment with the word word open as if you've arrived or you've got it figured out. That's the beauty of humility opening the word. It's just just as those of us who are in leadership or pastoring or elders. At that point, in that moment, when we open the word next to our brother or sister, like, it's shoulder to shoulder.

Michael: 13:19

Like, there's no pulpit. There's no elevation difference. It's shoulder to shoulder. And the posturing is we're both done in the scriptures, and we lift our head to look at each other and and ask each other how this is happening in our lives. And then all of a sudden, it takes all that competency fear off you and puts it and places it on the compassion of the word and the work of the spirit.

Michael: 13:41

Mhmm.

Robert: 13:42

So And, you know, second Corinthians 1334 is is very informative for us because in keeping with the same situation, if the pastor or ministry leader has been shepherded and comforted deeply by the lord through the word, regardless of their troubles or afflictions, they're they're gonna be more apt to bring that to other people. Yeah. And so the the principle of second Corinthians 13 through 4 is receive from God what you need and then offer that same thing to other people. Yeah. And so if we're afraid to open the word because we don't we're not in control of that moment, the spirit of God is, then we're not going to do so if we have not experienced the Lord's comfort and peace and rest in our troubles.

Michael: 14:31

Yeah. That that's so good. Back to that point for a moment of bible study sitting down, and and that's the difference. And I think I think that's 1 of those things that we need to not just acknowledge, but bring a level of awareness of all the Bible studies that we do in church. All of that Bible study knowledge is helpful, humbly go to the lord together and walk together abiding in him.

Michael: 14:56

Abiding isn't just the knowledge of biblical studies of knowing historical context. All that's super helpful, and it has its place in the moment if it's rightly applied. But I would say, I think the most work that gets done by the spirit, at least what I've experienced, so I don't wanna speak for anyone else, at least just what I've seen and experiences. All of that knowledge when it's applied in the care of 1 another and when I say care, that's synonymous with discipling. And not that I'm discipling a brother, there is a mutual discipling that's happening.

Robert: 15:28

Right.

Michael: 15:29

Now granted and and and there's fluidity in in those relationships and those dynamics where I might be sitting with a a man who's a little bit younger, spiritually speaking, than me, but I'm not flexing on him. It's not I'm not dropping knowledge. I'm allowing that knowledge to come through in the humility and the submission and the ordinary obedience that I'm I'm no different than this brother. We're walking through this together. Now I might have a little bit more experiential knowledge because I've experienced more as a believer, and I can maybe articulate things a little bit better.

Michael: 16:00

But the compassion that comes across in the care of that person and then all of a sudden, they're encouraged because now maybe they're having more categories to think in biblical categories that that are just they're undeveloped. And so to me, that's that's where the joy of getting into the word. It's not flexing on your knowledge. It's applying that knowledge like lip balm do a dry lip. Well, the other the other

Robert: 16:22

beautiful thing, Michael, when we come alongside of 1 another and using your scenario of a of a younger disciple, oftentimes, the Lord is teaching me through his his reflections, his responses. Many times, like, man, I didn't think about that myself or I didn't see that in the scriptures. Yeah. And it's a joy. Ministry is always mutual.

Michael: 16:45

Mhmm.

Robert: 16:46

And but getting back to the point, it's not just about knowledge. And I think that's we've fallen into that trap with all the Bible studies. Yeah. And even perhaps the way that we go about preaching and teaching, a creation reality is that God created us for communion with him. And that communion is just not knowing about him, but knowing him in a full experiential way in the Hebrew as as a husband knows a wife.

Michael: 17:09

Yeah. To know them in the biblical sense.

Robert: 17:11

That's right. To know 1 to know the Lord in a biblical sense and as John Owen who wrote on Communion with God suggests, he says communion with God is how we experience our relationship with God. And so what I going back to this passage when the Lord stops me at verse 10, I reflect on his steadfast love and faithfulness is a way of describing all of his paths. When I take the time to pause and meditate on that and imagine who my god is and how he leads me, I begin to experience his nearness. I experience his presence and his comfort and his wisdom and his love and his peace and the joy that comes from that.

Robert: 17:53

And my soul can begin to rest in the midst of the affliction or the trouble. And that's a piece that I think that is often overlooked for the sake of knowledge only. And when God's people begins to begin to be stirred by the love and faithfulness of god, then we grow more confident in him. And we want to go back to him more and more to the point where we're talking to him all throughout the day.

Michael: 18:21

Yeah. Going back to the the primary point of walking in his path is that's abiding. You're staying on the path with him in in his presence.

Robert: 18:29

And as Paul Paul described to the stoics and the philosophers at Mars Hill as he was describing the unknown god, Act 17 verse 28, god god is described as the 1 in whom in him we live and move and have our being. And in 1 sense, that's god that created us to abide in him in every every thought, every movement, every breath. And when I think about abiding from that sense, I see how far I've fall short of that Yeah. Which makes me more dependent upon Christ. Yeah.

Robert: 19:04

And so thankful for him as well. And as a direct result, my understanding of his love just explodes because how can he love me when I am so unfaithful to him in how I live?

Michael: 19:16

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's good. And that's what's so beautiful about the Psalms because it they're very explicit on how they articulate, how it looks to veer off the path, how it looks to focus on the things that are in front of us.

Michael: 19:29

Obviously, David's always because I'm I'm right now in my in my reading, I'm in in the thirties. I just read Psalm 3738 today. But just the the prayer of just being delivered from enemies and just having, like, legitimate enemies around us and the the the distractions and everything around us. And it's just man, we want the lord to do something in that, but it it presupposes us going to him. That's the reality is he's making those claims and crying out to the Lord in his presence.

Michael: 19:56

That means he's gone to him and as first Peter talks about is humbling ourselves under the mighty hand of God, casting all your anxieties on him because he cares for you. And that's what I love about the Psalms. As you can see, the the anxieties are gonna go somewhere. It's like he cast it out in 1 verse, and then he goes over here with it, and then he it's just all over the place. And so there is this casting, but that's what I love about these Psalms is it's just David acknowledges the light of his path, that it is the word as we've been in Psalm 119 here at the conference.

Michael: 20:25

The Psalms are just plentiful with giving us, as you mentioned, just the when we're meditating word pictures and being able to close our eyes and envision what it means to be on the path. And that's what I love about that verse that you you honed in on in verse 10 that all the paths of the lord all the paths? All the paths? The ones that appear to be very fearful, and I'm scared out of my mind, and I don't know what to do. Oh, yes.

Michael: 20:48

All the paths. So that's good. That's good. Robert, thank you for being with me this 1. We'll see you guys on the next 1.

Michael: 20:54

Thank you for listening to Speak the Truth. And again, if you guys wanna hear different topics, please email us at topics at speak the truth dot org. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.