Michael: 00:07

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are at the 2024 Call to Council Conference yet again here at the ABC Conference, National Conference at Doxology Bible Church in Fort Worth, Texas.

Michael: 00:30

And I am joined today with 2 great biblical counselors that are from the Midwest. I should know this because I originally am from the state, the state of Michigan. But I am joined today with David Dunham and Krista Dunham. How are y'all doing?

David: 00:44

Yeah. Great. Great. Glad to be here.

Michael: 00:46

Yeah. I'm glad y'all are here. And I actually wanted to record with y'all last year, but I didn't get a chance to snag you and get you in here. But, anyway, I wanted to introduce you to these guys, our listeners here, because these 2 have been doing a lot of work, and they have just recently come on the ABC scene. David is a pastor.

Michael: 01:03

Christa is a biblical counselor, and she's got her own private practice and, in the great state of Michigan. And so we're gonna hear a little bit of their story, but then we're gonna talk a little bit about addiction. But, David and Christa, would you just introduce yourselves? And if you would just share a little bit about how you became the pastor, and then Christa will talk about your counseling.

David: 01:21

Yeah. I think I got into pastoral ministry secondhand. It wasn't what I was planning to do. I had other aspirations as a young man, and as the Lord does, he changed those things around. And so we've been at Cornerstone Baptist Church in Roseville, Michigan, which is just north of Detroit, for 11 years, and it's been wonderful.

David: 01:39

We've we've really enjoyed it, and the experience of of becoming counseling pastor has been unique. I think I went to seminary, like many young men do, thinking, I'm gonna preach sermons, and I'm gonna preach really good sermons, and that's gonna just be turning point for people. And I got set up with a older, wiser pastor who was a a counselor, and he said, if you're gonna shadow me, you've gotta sit in on counseling cases. And I thought, that's fine. I'll do whatever you want me to do.

David: 02:06

And as I sat in, I just really started to see, wow, this is this is where discipleship is happening in some unique ways. The preaching of the word is powerful and important and necessary, but there's something unique about the counseling room. And so being able to be part of that and to to observe that really led me into saying, I think I want to do counseling, not just general pastoral work or even preaching work. I really wanna do counseling. And so that's been great and rewarding, and I've I've loved it a lot.

David: 02:34

So we were just talking in the car earlier today about I think if I had just gone more the route of preaching, I don't I don't know that that would have worked as well to my strengths and needs. And the Lord really directed this to to come about for me to to understand counseling a little better. And so that's that's been great. I've been in that now for 15 years, maybe.

Michael: 02:55

That's amazing. It's funny in that you you mentioned seminary and stuff. And kind of the the idea is I'm gonna go to seminary. I'm gonna it's all about the public ministry of the word.

David: 03:03

Yes. Yeah.

Michael: 03:05

And we don't really consider the personal ministry of the word. And so I I appreciate that because similar story to my own of just wanting to be in pastoral ministry. Although, I I don't think I really ever truly wanted to be, like, the teaching pastor, the one who's, preaching every Sunday. But I wanted to be I wanted to shepherd, and I wanted to be involved in that and and have discipling pathways and and help the body grow, not just under the instruction of the word, but just the relational application to go along with that. So I appreciate that.

Michael: 03:34

That's that's good to hear. Christa, so I understand as we were talking before, again, the record button was pushed. You had mentioned that you've got a private practice. And then you jokingly made a comment about that David is working for you now.

Krista: 03:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: 03:49

How did that happen?

Krista: 03:50

It really started like, I used to volunteer at our church. I was basically working for him. And I don't know, just through various circumstances. Yeah. I think I had wanted all the way back from high school.

Krista: 04:03

I wanted to be involved in psychology just the way the mind work has has always just really fascinated me. And so I wanted to do something that involved that, but I didn't really know about biblical counseling at all, really. And I think it was after, really, I got a degree that I didn't want really from undergrad and elementary education. And I don't know. I just started pieces coming together and because I had been a counselee

David: 04:34

Mhmm. As

Krista: 04:34

well. And biblical counseling had really helped me overcome an eating disorder, which is why we had written our book, Table For 2.

Michael: 04:42

Which we will definitely get to because that is yeah.

Krista: 04:45

And so, after that, I just started realizing I'm just volunteering as a counselor at a church. I'm just realizing that I don't have I'm not equipped really to help people the way that I wanted to. I'd be sitting in front of somebody. And because I wrote a book, I seem like an expert, And so people would be, I don't know, expecting me to help them in a way that I just couldn't.

Michael: 05:08

You mean that cultural norm's not a reality? If you write a book, you're an expert?

Krista: 05:11

I guess I'm, telling the secret of us writers. We're not really experts. But yeah. So I just started feeling like I don't have what I need in order to help people. And so I decided to get, a master's in biblical counseling from Westminster.

Krista: 05:27

And from that point, I just really got excited to I saw all these students coming through, and I wanted to create something where the students could actually go, where they would have a place to have a job once they got done. And this past May, I, yeah, I just decided to to launch my own biblical counseling practice. It's strictly online right now, but and then I just started finding that there were male counselor counselees who didn't want a female counselor and which was totally understandable. And at that point, I just started contracting him out. And it works out.

Krista: 06:03

It's like a side hustle for him. But he's he's much better with the administrative type stuff. He takes care of some of that for me as well. But it just worked out. It fit with what we were doing, and and it helped us out financially.

Krista: 06:15

And I don't know all that stuff.

Michael: 06:17

So No. That's awesome. So you did mention, Krista, in passing there, a table for 2, and you had mentioned eating disorder. Because that's that's the second part this episode is really getting into just addictions fashioned it and formed it the way that he wanted it to be. So how did A Table For 2 come about?

Michael: 06:43

What led you guys to obviously write a write the book on it and then, obviously, just the reality of that struggle?

Krista: 06:51

I I think I always wanted to be a writer, like, on top of wanting to study psychology. That was one of the other things I really wanted to do was since I could write, I was writing stories and books and sharing those with my classmates and stuff. So I always wanted to write, but I had been working on writing fiction, and it wasn't really going anywhere. And then we found out we were having our youngest daughter, and it really fell apart, and I had nothing. So it was just a few years after that that he just pitched that idea to me to just be, like, what if we wrote about this?

Krista: 07:31

There's really nothing out there. I think people could benefit from your story, but he really wanted to make sure that I was on board since I was the one that

Michael: 07:39

I was stuff out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Krista: 07:41

But I think I had no idea what I was really saying yes to at that point because, yeah, I was really saying yes to all of this. Like, it was just yeah. Just it really launched a lot of things for us that weren't available before that.

David: 07:55

And Yeah. And I think for for us, we Christa struggled with an eating disorder for 10 years. And at that point in our life, there really just was not anything available.

Michael: 08:07

Especially in the Christian world. Right? It's kinda like what you're on the book titled Biblical Council for Eating Disorders. Yes.

David: 08:12

Yeah. I mean, we stumbled onto late in her struggle, we stumbled onto Elise Fitzpatrick's Love to Eat Hate to Eat, which is a wonderful book, but not geared specifically towards those who have more restrictive eating habits. And so we we really struggled to find things, and and biblical counseling was not very well known in the church at that point even. We just didn't even know where to turn for help. We Let

Michael: 08:36

alone up there in the Midwest in Michigan.

David: 08:38

Yeah. We were in Southern Ohio

Michael: 08:39

at that

David: 08:39

point and in a small rural area, and so there just wasn't a lot of resources anyways. And we we met with or you met with psychologists, and we we had different interactions. Some were okay and some were not, and but we ended up having to piece together a lot of things. And so at this point, we thought, what if we wrote the book that we wish we had way back when? What would that look like?

David: 09:03

And here it is.

Krista: 09:04

Yeah.

David: 09:05

Here it is.

Michael: 09:05

Published in 2021. Mhmm. Yeah.

Krista: 09:08

And I think what's interesting about it is, like, when I go back and look at what we wrote and and really think about what I would tell a counselee now and what he was telling counselees at the time, it just all fit together. And even though I had no idea, like, when we're trying to figure out how I needed to get better from an eating disorder, Like, we didn't know biblical counseling. We didn't know what I was supposed to be doing. It just it it felt almost like God was saying, take this step, then take this step. Now take this step.

Krista: 09:41

And so once we wrote that book and put everything together, it was like I had that information already just from my experience. But then it was the same information we'd still give to counselees. And so that was a cool experience to see all that like, come together.

David: 09:57

Yeah. To see the Lord's work in bringing you through that. Yeah.

Michael: 10:00

That's amazing. So fast forward to now coming to the ABC conference, which was an unknown world to you guys just a short couple years ago. Right?

David: 10:09

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We're still not really sure how we ended up here. I I think you guys

Michael: 10:15

Did Shauna did Shauna reach out to you? Or is that say who emailed you?

David: 10:18

Did, but I I think she was just running out of names, and so she drafted us.

Michael: 10:22

No. I think much like by y'all's own admission a moment ago is that there are certain pockets within Yeah. The Christian world, biblical counseling specifically, where topically speaking, there's really issue specific wise, there's really not a lot out there. You know what I mean? It's it's very slim picking since I I do remember just this is much to your point.

Michael: 10:41

At least this book was out there, but beyond that, there really wasn't

David: 10:43

Yeah.

Michael: 10:44

Something that was theologically dynamic in in the disorder and that and then for you guys to I'm I'm reading the description and and and you know what I mean? It's just so for for there not to be anything out there and then for you guys to do that. So I I understand why you guys got contacted. Thank you. Yeah.

Michael: 11:01

Which leads to being here on the addictions track

David: 11:04

Yeah.

Michael: 11:05

Here. And so I thought I could just ask for you guys to just share a little bit about just at a higher level theologically maybe, sort of the the addiction cycle and just how you saw that play out in in your own experience. But then as you do it in counseling and how you see that as it relates to a struggle with reorienting our worship.

David: 11:25

Yeah. Yeah. I think when we think about addictions, we we often talking about, and this isn't new to us, this came from Ed Welch has done great work on this. We think about addiction as a worship disorder. So we recognize that dynamic of of I'm using a substance or a behavior to escape pain or find pleasure, and I'm pursuing that to my own destruction.

David: 11:49

And so that that becomes this dynamic where I'm I'm worshiping certain things that lead me into addiction, and so I think it's maybe it's doctor Welch, maybe it's somebody else who talks about you worship your way into addiction, and you worship your way out. And as we seek to help people, we're really trying to reorient their heart and their values and their priorities back to the Lord. So we have a particular philosophy, which is even how we shaped the addiction track here at ABC. We call it the 4 r's because when you're Baptist, you're required to Yeah.

Michael: 12:20

We love those alliterations. Yeah. Yeah. For

David: 12:22

sure. So I'd lose my cards if I didn't. So we use the 4 r's. We talk about change happens through through these means. Responsibility, so I start with taking responsibility for the things that are mine.

David: 12:34

There's all sorts of variables and factors that contribute to a person's addiction, and I know Christa can be able to speak to some of that just in her own experience, with an eating disorder, but we I take responsibility for the things that are mine. And then relationship with God and with God's people, restructuring my life to, help, make temptations or, make growth more more tangible, more possible, make resistance easier, and then remaining, remaining vigilant. So what we might call relapse prevention sorts of things. So that's kind of the the general philosophy we've implemented at our church and in our ministry and and in our our book as well. But you could probably speak to just some of the ways that that played out in your own story.

Krista: 13:16

Yeah. Like, talking about it being a worship issue. It was actually Elise Fitzpatrick's book, Idols of the Heart, that was actually

David: 13:24

Yeah.

Krista: 13:24

More helpful to me than her book on eating.

Michael: 13:28

Yeah.

Krista: 13:28

And just to discover, oh, yeah. There is something in my heart that is really causing me to think of something higher than I think of God. Like, I just I'm pursuing this much harder than I'm pursuing my relationship with God. And so I think that was just really eye opening to me because I'd never really been taught that. I didn't know that was even possible.

Krista: 13:52

I just was I really felt like how a lot of people look at eating disorders, that it just came upon me. Like, it was a a disease that just came out of nowhere, and I didn't know what to do about it. And that's what kind of left me in that spot was just I didn't know how it came, so I didn't know how to get rid of it. Mhmm. And once I was really informed a little more about Idols of My Heart, then I could see, oh, then I can go this direction.

Krista: 14:22

I had somewhere to go from there. And, yeah, that was really a huge turning point for me Yeah. In that.

Michael: 14:28

That was really good. So it it it's funny when we talk about addictions and going back to those theological points that you guys were making. Is the reality of Romans 1. So just out of curiosity, because I know at least for me, when dealing with consulates and and working with them through their addictions, which typically is a non substance abuse, it's usually sexual addictions usually. Yeah.

Michael: 14:49

Yeah. Pornography, things like that tend tend to be what I

David: 14:52

Yeah. Sure.

Michael: 14:52

I am usually in. But to your point, what's interesting, Krista, is when you get through the addiction cycle, but then you start to introduce that theological dynamic and layer about the the struggle is that Romans one reality of worshiping and serving creation as opposed to the creator. And realizing, like you said, David, the way I say it is maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. That's the telos of our soul. Yes.

Michael: 15:15

Those are those creaturely comforts and things. And when you start to share what the council is, it it literally is foreign to them. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an unknown category.

Michael: 15:23

They just they haven't really thought that there's no category for it. So it's actually quite interesting to see some of those theological implications coming into the conversation when you're doing that. Do you guys have any any thoughts, Roman one stories or any any conversations where you guys have have been and just how you introduce addictions through Romans 1 or just some of those theological implications when you get beyond the cycle or the alliterations of the r's and everything like that?

David: 15:47

Yeah. I think for us, particularly with believers, it's difficult because and and you experience this a lot. I I'm a Christian, and I love Jesus, so I shouldn't be struggling

Michael: 15:56

with this.

David: 15:56

Right? And and so there are these dynamics people get in where they they start either denying that the problem's that serious because I I have Jesus. I have the spirit of God. So it's not that bad. I'm I'm I'm not doing what it looks like I might be doing, or or maybe I'm not a Christian because Christians can't possibly struggle with this.

David: 16:12

So I think theologically, one of the things I try to take people to is the dynamic of of believers submitting themselves to be slaves to sin again. And Paul talks about this in Romans 6. Yeah. He talks about this in Romans 7. This idea that that even as a believer, I could submit my members to be slaves to unrighteousness, which is paraphrasing a couple of verses there in Romans 6.

Michael: 16:36

Yeah.

David: 16:37

Or Jesus talks about the one who makes himself an obedient the one who sins becomes a slave to sin. And so we have these this dynamic at play where I can I can be, even as a believer, in trapping making choices that eventually lead to to bondage? So that's why our our definition of addiction borrows from Ed Welch's work, where he talks about addiction as a voluntary slavery. And those two pieces of choice, I'm making choices. There's moral responsibility that is truly mine.

David: 17:10

I am making choices, and yet I can make choices in such a way that at some point, it feels so much that that sin has such a tight grip on me that it feels so hard to let go and to change. And so it's more than just choose differently. I need actually help in cultivating new habits. Since trying to help Christians understand, you can get deep into sin, and you can get stuck in in forms of bondage that you you're not really a slave to sin, but you've made yourself a slave to sin. So I think that's been one of the theological points that we've really seen a need to emphasize a lot lately is just Christians can struggle with all types of addictions, and and and the the Bible recognizes the complexity of addiction.

David: 17:53

Yeah.

Michael: 17:54

Yeah. So how often in that? Because those are when we talk about addiction, a lot of times, we can struggle with reducing the conversation down to a couple of things versus realizing the the other things that are at play, like, when suffering enters the conversation.

David: 18:07

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: 18:08

You know what I mean? And just all of that. So, Christa, how would you encourage those who are thinking about becoming counselors or maybe those who struggle with, like, I love psychology, but I'm a Christian.

Krista: 18:20

I think I can speak a lot to that because I'm the kind of person who really can't make decisions very well, and and I don't move forward. I have a lot of things that I get excited about. I think just knowing that the Holy Spirit is really a part of this whole thing. And to put yourself on the back burner and just say, I'm I'm just part of this whole thing. And knowing that it's really it's really God's world that we're living in.

Krista: 18:48

And I think I just would put myself too much in the center of everything and think if I fail that it's going to ruin everything and everyone's gonna see me. And I think just some circumstances through my life in the last year has just made me realize, I'm really just living for what God has for me to do. And that's the way that Jesus lived, and that's the way that I wanna live. It's just I have, a mission that God has given me to do, and I can move forward in that and not be worried that I'm going to fail Yeah. Because I'm just doing what God has asked me to do.

Krista: 19:23

So, yeah, I would just say that.

David: 19:25

Practically speaking, I I think you could speak to just that. You've you've asked for specific input from people who've already been there, and I think that has helped you. And when you felt indecisive or what should I do, you've asked you've got some good, godly women in your life who've been there, and you've you've been able to ask them, what do you think about this? What would you do? So find a mentor kind of a thing or find

Michael: 19:47

a mentor. Seek some counsel and and yeah. That is that is good. That is good. I appreciate you guys joining me, and I'm gonna put the book in the show notes.

Michael: 19:56

Great. Is there anything we could be looking for in the future?

David: 20:01

Yes. We do have a book forthcoming. So we've been working on it for 2 years, so we're hoping it's forthcoming with P&R Publisher. So we've been actively working on a really excited about it. We think that it has the potential to offer some fresh perspective on a very familiar conversation, and so we're we're excited about it.

Michael: 20:22

That's awesome. Guys, thank you so much. And again, for those of you who are listening, again, you can email us at topics at speak the truth dot org. Please do that. Let us know what you'd like us to talk about, some things that would be helpful for you and your ministry.

Michael: 20:34

Thank you for listening. We'll see you guys next time.