Michael: 00:07

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are back in the studio.

Michael: 00:21

We are at the May to minister conference where we are talking about just a local church being involved in biblical counseling. And excited about this episode. I actually have a new friend. Yeah. I'm joined with Josh Conwell.

Michael: 00:34

Josh Conwell is the executive director. Good to see you, man. Hi. The executive director of counseling at Doxa Collective, a counseling center located in Southeast Portland. I'm excited to hear about is that for all of you who have inquired at Truth Renewed and through Speak the Truth about biblical counseling coming from Southern and just, you know, wondering if there's opportunity, Josh is a recent graduate of Southern.

Michael: 00:56

I am. 2 years ago. Right?

Josh: 00:57

It is. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: 00:58

It's

Josh: 00:58

been doesn't feel that way, but, yeah, 2 years ago.

Michael: 01:01

That's great. So what I wanted to talk with Josh about is I wanted to get to know him a little bit, not only just kinda what he's doing now, but, obviously, just his his journey and his story and how he felt called to counsel and how the Lord took that calling and got him to where he is today. So, Josh, you wanna give us your journey?

Josh: 01:19

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I I get a lot of people who ask me why counseling or why biblical counseling. And they said, well, you know, how did you become to that decision?

Josh: 01:29

And I just say I got saved. And that was basically how it led me to do biblical counseling. I grew up most of my life in Houston. My dad's a pastor, grew up Southern Baptist, but kinda went on different routes growing up in college and whatnot and thought I was a Christian at a young age. And then in my late twenties, realized through a lot of difficulty and suffering, I burned out at a church.

Josh: 01:51

I I was serving, not working, but just doing a lot. And then my sister almost passed away. She had a lot of medical issues, was doing went through a surgery, and it went really badly. And through all that suffering, I think I was confronted with the fact that I wasn't truly a Christian. I thought I think I had not fully understood the gospel of salvation through grace alone, through faith alone.

Josh: 02:10

And I think a lot of it had come through my own need to satisfy the lord through my performance and through my character as a godly person felt very, like, kind of a self righteous salvation. And I was never very secure in my faith in the sense of truly being a Christian. And I I think through all that suffering, I think I had just really never understood a living Christ. J. I.

Josh: 02:32

Packer in his evangelism, the sovereignty of God talks about how we often believe in a dead Jesus but don't believe in a risen Jesus. And I think I knew that Jesus died for my sins, but I didn't believe that through his resurrection that I was given new life. And I I think Ezekiel 37 really tran transform or 36 and 37 about talking about, like, taking out your heart of stone and giving you a heart of flesh. Mhmm.

Michael: 02:55

And I

Josh: 02:55

think what I grew up thinking about was not a lot of grace, but a lot of what I need to do. Like, Jesus died for you. So now you need to go out and live a good life and obey his commands and serve people and tithe and all the all kind of, like, more outwardly focused works that, to me, I think, ingrained in me that that's kinda how you become a Christian instead of the fact that Ezekiel 36 says, I I take out your heart of stone, and I give you a heart of flesh. Like, god does that. He he he transforms your life.

Josh: 03:22

He gives you new affections and new desires for him, and he gives you new life, and you become a new creation. So during that time, Romans 5 and 6 became very powerful of, like, this idea of, like, you're dead to sin and you're alive to Christ. And I think growing up, I never really believed in the transformational gospel. I I think I just believed, like, you that you kinda you fight your sins, but you're kinda gonna loo be losing battle all your life, and then you die, and you go to heaven. And so I think as I was reading the word, I just became very powerful.

Josh: 03:50

Like, the word does have hope and power of transformation and truth to guide us in our lives and our and our daily struggles, and there is hope. And I think for the first time, I really just started to see a power in the gospel that I just never really saw before growing up. It just seemed like everyone around me was just the same. I grew up in the south, so it was just like once you're Christian, always a Christian, kind of, like, you know, and we'd never really took our faith seriously. And so everyone kinda just dealt with the same issues, and there never really seemed to be a a powerful transformation that, like, Jesus brings to our lives.

Josh: 04:20

So I think after I became a Christian, I've been thinking about counseling before then. I'm like, oh, maybe I'd be a a counselor somewhere at a college. I was working at the University of Houston. And after I got saved, I realized, actually, I think I wanna do Christian counseling. I wanna, like, deal with the heart at the soul level of of just understanding.

Josh: 04:37

How do I bring scripture into the area where people are hurting or discouraged as I think lord met me in my time of struggle and doubts. And so I started researching it, and then I came across biblical counseling. And I'm like, oh, what's this? And became interested in that and started watching different videos on it and came across, like, CCEF and and others, like David Palison and Ed Welch. And so I became really excited about the books and those teachings and Jeremy Pierre.

Josh: 05:03

And so began researching seminaries in the area, had no idea where to go to. And and for for, yeah, for some reason, the the Lord just kinda led my heart to Southern. I got to talk to Jeremy Pierre. He was really encouraging and helpful. And I was very honest with him, like, okay.

Josh: 05:18

I'm not licensed. I'm not gonna be, you know, I'm not gonna be offered a job the minute I get out of seminary. Why why should I come here? And he was just like, yeah. I mean, there's no guarantee that you're gonna be having a counseling center or a pastor.

Josh: 05:29

I mean but I think here are the reasons why I think this would be beneficial for you. And I think just thinking through, you know, the opportunity to, like, grow in my knowledge of the Lord, so that Southern's opportunities for classes. And and, again, like, this isn't, like, you should go to Southern kind of thing, but there was just, like

Michael: 05:43

I'll make that plug later.

Josh: 05:45

Yeah. But I I think I just I really wanted to grow my knowledge of scripture, but also just learning from Pierre and and Bob Jones and John Henderson were just great opportunities to understand how does the practical theology of scripture meet us in our daily life and how do we help others. And it seemed to me as even if I never went into ministry, that it would still be used in my daily life with everyone I meet with when I get coffee, when I meet up and talk to people, or just in my small group, just the opportunities to to to engage people where they're at in in their life. And so, yeah, I went to Southern, was there 5 years, went to a church there in Louisville, Third Avenue, where I just developed good close relationships, got to do lay counseling. I I went part time because I I didn't want debt.

Josh: 06:29

Can I can

Michael: 06:29

I ask you a quick question on it? Sorry. Just as a as a student currently at Southern, I wonder there's Clifton. Right?

Josh: 06:38

Right.

Michael: 06:38

And then there's Third Avenue. Uh-huh. And then there's a couple others. And you've got Southern right there, and they're all, like, in different pockets of churches. So my question, how did you decide?

Josh: 06:48

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's alright. I'd I'd never been to a city where there was such a wealth of

Michael: 06:53

Right.

Josh: 06:53

Healthy, godly churches around me. I mean, you just you really just throw a rock, and you hit a good church.

Michael: 06:58

Right.

Josh: 06:59

And so I didn't really know which ones. And Pierre mainly just said, oh, you're studying counseling. Well, maybe you should go to a church where they're doing that, where they're doing they they have, like, a ministry that's happening. They have maybe a department of counseling, so you can learn from people there. So, mainly, I I identified I think it was Clifton, Emmanuel, Sojourn, and Third Avenue, were the main churches I knew that were doing counseling.

Josh: 07:23

And so

Michael: 07:24

I gotta put those in

Josh: 07:25

the show notes, Josh. Sorry. No. It's good. It's good.

Josh: 07:28

Yeah. And so, yeah, visited Emmanuel, and then I really didn't wanna go to Third Avenue because that's where Mueller went. And I was like, I don't wanna go to, like, a seminary church where, like, the president goes. But then I went to 3rd and loved it and decided to stay and, yeah, and just did ministry there for 5 years and learned a lot about the church and the local body and was able to be a lay counselor. I got to teach counseling there a few years later.

Josh: 07:52

And Yeah.

Michael: 07:53

What a blessing. Yeah.

Josh: 07:53

It was a huge blessing.

Michael: 07:54

Unassumed blessing.

Josh: 07:55

Just Yeah. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. And even when the pastor Yeah.

Michael: 07:58

It was right.

Josh: 07:59

Yeah. If the pastor said, like, well, we're not really doing a lot of like, we don't have, like, a huge counseling ministry. So if you wanna, like, work at a counseling ministry or do stuff, maybe you should go somewhere else. And I appreciated his honesty. And but I think in the end, I'm, like, well, I think this is a godly church.

Josh: 08:12

And I knew if I went on to another church, then that would be just as good as this one or Emmanuel or Clifton or Sojourn or whatever. And so I'm like, I just need to pick a place and just pour into that church and not, like, bounce around and just serve a body and and just be faithful where I'm at. And so I just okay. Well, I'm just gonna choose 3rd, and here we are.

Michael: 08:30

Yeah. I know. That's funny because you to your point, it's like, you choose those churches and try to make that decision. You're like, well, there's 3 people at this church that have written, like, 20 books. And then, you know what I mean?

Michael: 08:40

It's, like yeah. Best Sunday schools, you know, it's just, like, you're you're at your point.

Josh: 08:44

Anyways I felt that way of, like, oh, what's gonna be best for me? Like, oh, which one has the most or or is it the most professors, the best Sunday schools or teachings? Or who's gonna develop me? Who am I gonna who's gonna be my mentor? And so it it felt like a very self focused choices I was making.

Josh: 08:59

And I could see a lot of guys and women, like, not choosing a church. They would bounce around or they just couldn't decide because they there were just some things they didn't like about the church and just realized that there's no perfect church.

Michael: 09:09

Right.

Josh: 09:10

And so it's it's more of, like, what what can I do for my church? How can I serve my church and love my church instead of, like, what can the church do for me?

Michael: 09:17

That's, that's really helpful because and the reason why I wanted to kinda point that out, Josh, is because, you know, at least and you know this, man. You you alluded to this earlier, but just coming from Houston, tons of megachurches.

Josh: 09:27

Oh, yeah.

Michael: 09:28

Where I'm at, Fort Worth, tons of megachurches.

Josh: 09:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: 09:31

Dallas. Right? Just I mean, they're all throughout Texas. But so, consumerism is alive and well there. Mhmm.

Michael: 09:38

And so to be in Louisville, like, it's, like, the best department stores you can imagine. You know, to a consumer with that analogy, right, where it's like I mean, they got all the best shops. They got the best Bible teachers. It's just like. So you kinda get in that consumer mode versus, I think, kinda what you pointed out, just the relationship.

Michael: 09:53

So it's just, like, trying to figure that out a little bit of, yeah, what can you do for your church? Yes. It is about being fed, but also how are you participating and contributing instead of being a consumer. So I I would I would imagine it's very difficult to be in that area and not kinda have, you know, that temptation to be a consumer Yeah. Just because it's so tempting and it's so right there in terms of the caliber.

Michael: 10:16

You know? So it's good. It's good. So yeah. So then you're finishing, and now you're in Portland.

Michael: 10:21

So how did you go from Louisville to Portland?

Josh: 10:24

Yeah. Everyone I was telling that I was moving to Portland, they were like, why or good luck. And, yeah, it's a big jump, and I was pretty nervous about it. So, mainly, when I finished up seminary, I wanted to go into pastoring, do a ministry, work at a church. And so I just felt the need to be more equipped.

Josh: 10:45

And so I started looking into different church residencies, internships around the US and even overseas too and started applying for a few different ones. I applied for a church in Mark Vrograph's church in Indianapolis, applied there, applied at Capitol Hill with Mark Devereux, 1 in Georgia, 1 in Portland. And I was I was just praying about it. I was talking to church leaders. I mean, you're I'm not gonna get into all of these, and I definitely didn't get into a couple of these.

Josh: 11:10

But I was just

Michael: 11:11

It was worth a letter. It was worth a shot.

Josh: 11:12

Yeah. It was worth a shot. Just put my name in there. But I I was visiting friends in the northeast, and then I visited Portland. And so I I think I was praying about, like, where could I do ministry?

Josh: 11:22

Where am I needed? I mean, Louisville just has a wealth of opportune not opportunity, but a wealth of people there that it just seemed to me that you can easily stay there and be comfortable in your community. And I miss it a lot, but I think there was also just you know, I went there to go out and, like, serve other areas where that where there is no wealth of that. And so I I I know Portland just doesn't have a lot of strong biblical teaching and needs strong pastors. I think a lot of people focus on the northeast as as kinda like where the churches are dying, but I think the churches are dying up in northwest too and clearly need a lot of healthy churches.

Josh: 11:57

And so never wanted to be a head pastor. Just wanted to do a counseling discipleship kind of thing. And so went out, got accepted into the church, Henson Memorial Baptist Church in Southeast, Portland. Got accepted into residency there for 5 months, came out and just did that, did a lot of focusing on ecclesiology, did a lot of reading books and writing papers and a lot of discussions with pastors. And yeah.

Josh: 12:19

And so I just I prayed about it. I got mainly, I just got in. I was, like, okay. That seems like a good sign. And really, I visited the church, really liked it.

Josh: 12:26

I mean, I like the West Coast. I think growing up in Houston, I was never really a southern dude. I think I was more of, like, a West Coast dude or a New York kinda guy. Mhmm. And so think I get the West Coast vibe a lot more.

Josh: 12:38

I think that most places are like, oh, well, I could live here. Liberalism doesn't bother me as much as, I think, other people. I can engage with people in that way and happy to learn about the culture, engage with the people, and share the gospel with those here in the city. And so, yeah, I've been in Portland almost 2 years in July. And so it's been good.

Josh: 12:58

It's been hard. I think it's a different culture. I'm still kind of learning to settle in and understand the people here. But the church has been, like, my lifeline. I don't know if I could do it without, where I'm at with my community.

Josh: 13:09

Especially with the the rainy season, you don't get it being in Texas and but when it's just cloudy for 4 months and rainy, it's super hard. Yeah. And so but having I live in church housing, so I'm, like, a block from the church, and I live with friends around me. So that's been a a really helpful, I think, to just be able to engage with people. And I think I've noticed in Portland, when you're kind of in Louisville or the South where just Christianity is taken for granted and churches are taken for granted, Up in the northwest, like, if you're a Christian, like, you you stand out.

Josh: 13:38

Like, you choose to be a Christian. It's not popular. Like, you're hate you're kinda, like, looked down upon hated for being a Christian. And so in a way, it's refreshing because if you're a believer, you're you know, people are working to be fairly strong in their faith and and and their convictions. And so it kinda brings a deeper community, I think, in some ways because you don't have many.

Josh: 13:57

There's not many of us up there. And so I think in that sense, it it it is kind of a sweeter communion.

Michael: 14:03

Man, that's that's really good because I think and and just kinda you presenting that juxtaposition between kind of the church culture and the unchurched culture is having your convictions challenged. Right? Because to your point in Texas, I mean, you you know the culture. Mhmm. You know the mannerisms.

Michael: 14:21

Like, you know, to put it, the in the words that you're using a moment ago, you know the vibe. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know the vibe. As a matter of fact, to put it in perspective, somebody I was recently counseling became a new believer.

Michael: 14:34

It came through an adulterous situation. The guy became a believer. And through that process, realizing that he was also in a church culture, even in a leadership capacity, but he didn't know Christ. So, again, demonstrating that, like, yeah, sometimes being in that culture

Josh: 14:49

Mhmm.

Michael: 14:49

It doesn't really challenge your convictions.

Josh: 14:52

Mhmm.

Michael: 14:52

Because you can hide very easily because you know at least to how to present yourself Right. To where you're just sort of lost in, you know, in the crowd, so to speak. Mhmm. But to your point, you come out to places like this. No.

Michael: 15:04

You you don't. You know? I mean, yeah, you technically, you do that anywhere.

Josh: 15:08

Yeah. For sure.

Michael: 15:09

But but you do have to take a position on your convictions here. Mhmm. And I just I think that's just a a really awesome sort of clarity that you've you know, that the Lord has given you with that. And then how is that actually impacting the way that you're ministering here? How would you answer that question?

Josh: 15:25

How was it impacted the way I'm counseling and ministering?

Michael: 15:27

Yeah. Like, coming to that realization and just being able to speak from your convictions to people who are like, yeah. I don't care, dude.

Josh: 15:34

Yeah.

Michael: 15:34

Yeah. I'm not a Christian. Like, why Jesus? Yeah. What what are you talking about?

Josh: 15:39

Yeah. I don't feel like I'm a strong evangelist. And so it's, like, talking to people. I'm like, oh, man. This is hard.

Josh: 15:44

And my intimidated, like, a 10 year girl, I'm like, oh my gosh, Peter. You know? Yeah. It's like Peter denying Christ sometimes. But I think there there's this thing called, like, Portland Nice where people are like Oh,

Michael: 15:55

oh, yeah. We talked about that. Yeah. Go ahead then. So I

Josh: 15:56

can say here. I'll say that I'm a Christian, and and they're super nice about that. They're, like, oh, I I love that, you know, you're you're spiritual. Like, we're all spiritual and all that. But if I'm trying to push into, like, oh, but but you have your way and I have my way.

Josh: 16:11

But I'm, like, oh, no. But Christ is the only way. Then they're, like, I don't like that. You can't say that. I'm mad at you.

Josh: 16:15

And yeah. And so there it it like, there's a Portland nice, but until you you say something they don't agree with, then they're not nice anymore.

Michael: 16:22

Yeah.

Josh: 16:23

And so it it it is kinda hard in some ways. It's a different culture where everybody has their own religion, but but and that's good for you, but you can't tell me that mine is wrong or my view is wrong. And so they'll they don't mind you being a Christian as long as you don't, like, try to proselytize and and convert them or whatnot. And then that shifts and then, like, you're being intolerant by by saying that, oh, what you believe actually isn't true and this is the truth.

Michael: 16:48

Does it so in other words, you're really confronted with the idealistic relativism of, like, your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth. And we can co truth each other and have good conversation and treat each other good. But until you kind of present something that's contrary to my conviction, well, now I

Josh: 17:05

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: 17:05

I'm not partly nice to you anymore.

Josh: 17:06

Yeah.

Michael: 17:07

Yeah. I have a problem with you.

Josh: 17:08

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Jonathan talks about that in that talk. I was just saying about identity and, like, how it's so fragile.

Josh: 17:12

And I just I mean, I'm counseling people who just, like, seem like their identity is just very fragile. And the minute you start to push against that, they they get very angry. And so I think it's it is very hard. It's it's a long conversation to, like, be patient with those. But it also it just feels kind of I think I'm I'm more aware of when I have my Bible open in a coffee shop in Portland than I ever did in any other place I've been to just because it's just it's not normal.

Josh: 17:39

And I think you you almost feel like you're just gonna automatically be seen as kind of bigoted or homophobic or racist because you're a Christian. And so I I think people but I think that there's been, like, opportunities. Like, our church has started a a a coffee shop, and we have you know, it's open to anybody, but a ton of us Christians are there. We're doing we're talking. We're doing Bible studies, and people have come to church because of that.

Josh: 18:01

People have come to Christ. And so there is there is I think people are hungry for truth. I think people are very anxious. There's a lot of, like, mental health issues

Michael: 18:09

Mhmm.

Josh: 18:09

Up here. There's a lot of depression and anxiety. And probably that some of that is a seasonal depression. But I think more than I've seen in other places, there's just a lot of sadness and a lot of anger in in the city. And I think people are very hopeless.

Josh: 18:21

Though they think they have what's true, it hasn't given them peace. Yeah. They still don't have a peace. And and so I think that's where, like, the gospel of Christ is offering this peace and redemption. And I think that people are just very they're just very resistant at that.

Josh: 18:38

And I find that a lot of people it seemed as if there's a lot of expats from other parts of the world. And I think a lot of them have grown up in, like, a southern culture or have grown up in maybe more of a Christian culture where they've had religion pushed down on them. And Portland is, like, the refuge for people who are trying to get away from all of that. Even our church, we have a theme that we're kind of a recovering fundamentalist group because we've had people come from, like I don't wanna name them. The schools, but, like, more more fundamentalist leaning schools

Michael: 19:05

Yeah.

Josh: 19:06

Who have grown up in a very and so including myself, like, Bill Gothard. I don't know if you heard of Bill Gothard and just, like, all ATIA stuff. Like, a lot of not a lot, but there's a core group of people who have experienced those kinds of teaching. And they've and they and they for some reason, we ended up in Portland, and I think there's other people who have kind of gone from there that just been very burned by the church and Mhmm. And are very anti religious because this is how they see and I see that in biblical counseling too.

Josh: 19:32

They hear, like, a really harsh kind of Bible thumping counseling. And so it has taken a lot of conversations with people to help them understand, like, what what that I'm not that kind of person or that or even Christianity isn't that way. So it it seems like there's a lot of people that are just hurting. They're angry and they're hurting. And so it is a lot of listening and understanding with and so it it's been very stretching, I think, being here.

Michael: 19:57

Yeah. No. It is because, I mean, you had kinda jokingly responded that, you know, you're not a strong evangelist. But I feel like in the context that you are, like, God's cultivating that. Yeah.

Michael: 20:07

Right? And it's it's kind of that level of long suffering. Right? Like, I mean, I know at least where I am, there's a handful of people that I know personally that go out and do open air preaching. I know a lot of people like, oh, that's crazy.

Michael: 20:18

I wouldn't do that. Well, I understand that position, but they actually have a lot of engaging conversations. And people actually come to Christ through that means. It's not the only means. Right?

Michael: 20:30

And just like biblical counseling is another means in which through and I as Jeremy Pierre calls the personal ministry of the word. Right? But meeting people and their brokenness, in their despondency, like you mentioned, there's no hope. They just don't have any hope. They're sad.

Michael: 20:44

And they're just kinda looking. And so, like, to be Christ in that moment to actually present legitimate hope, then all of a sudden, you start to care for them. And we understand that in terms of our relationships. You start to have that equity with people, that relational equity. It's like, now all of a sudden, you can start having more of those challenging conversations.

Michael: 21:02

Right? Sometimes I think of John 6 where, like, by the end of the chapter, right, everybody all of his, quote, unquote, disciples have turned away from him except the 12 and then Jesus even questions the 12. But I think sometimes it's like, in terms of an approach, like, if we can present the gospel appropriately and meeting the person where they are in those moments and it's not acquiescing, you know, to this person and not giving them the whole counsel of god. But, like, there is there is an approach and a process. And sometimes it's not fitting in this context, but it's fitting in this context.

Michael: 21:33

So I just appreciate that perspective and kinda like your journey and what you've experienced so far. I think that's encouraging. So just in wrapping up the episode, Josh, how would you encourage sort of our seminarians, our current people that are just, you know, thinking through, okay, I'm in school, like, I'm you know? And they're they're thinking through the very things that you were thinking through. How would you encourage them as they sort of try to transition into the future of what does ministry look like now that this particular chapter of my life is done or going to be done?

Josh: 22:02

Yeah. I think a couple of things. One prayer. Definitely just, I think, asking the Lord for guidance and wisdom of next steps and being humble as to where the Lord will call you. I mean, I don't know if I'll stay forever in Portland.

Josh: 22:15

I I have no idea what the next steps are. I'm kinda growing my ministry, but we'll see. And so I'm trying to be open handed with where the Lord may call me. And so I think that's a very helpful step. And then talking to those in my church of, like, my giftings, like, where do you see me?

Josh: 22:30

It was helpful to talk about, do you see me as a pastor? Do you see me as a counselor? Do you see me in ministry? Am I qualified? And so, you know, my character just because I'm gifted doesn't mean I I have good character or godly character.

Josh: 22:41

Right. So I think getting assessed by the leaders and the friends that know me best at my church, I talk to my professors of opportunities. I talk to my pastors about opportunities. Like, where do you know churches or internships? I really recommend going to doing internships and training.

Josh: 22:59

I think we we could always need more training. So I began researching churches that offer training. So I mentioned, like, Bogrops Church or, like, the 9 March churches that offered residencies. If you're looking for specifically counseling training, like, the the churches that have, you know, like, I guess there's I don't know. I'm not sure if Austin Stone offers it, but there's other churches in the in different states that offer, like, CCEF offers an internship.

Josh: 23:25

There's a church in Fort Worth that offers it. And so the church in Los Angeles offers, counseling. So it was just, like, getting connected with people, looking, researching David Dunham's church offers counseling. So it was all these different churches, and I was having conversations with them and just seeing where was a good fit, what opportunities, and where I wanted to grow, and then seeing what doors open. And sometimes with with me, I don't know if this is the the best option, but it was just, like, okay.

Josh: 23:50

If a door opens and and it seemed like a right thing, I've talked to people about it, and I've prayed about it, and it's and it looks good, then I'm just gonna do it. And that's and because I know I will just sit there and just keep thinking about it over and over again. And I think, eventually, you just kinda have to do something just like what Kevin De Jong says. Just do something. Yeah.

Josh: 24:05

Yeah. And you just gotta move forward. And so I think that was just what I was doing. And and I think it was easier for me as a single person than a married couple. Like, sometimes, you know, you you need a full time job.

Josh: 24:15

You need a family. So you're you're looking at job job boards, opportunities. And I I would say, like, start thinking about this not when you graduate, but, like, the like, a year before. Yeah. Like, I was I I applied for my residency, like, 10 months or not or almost a year before I graduated.

Josh: 24:32

And I was having interviews and talking and, you know, I was accepted and I already knew where I was going way before I graduated. And that was just really helpful for me and my worries and my anxieties. So I recommend that. And interviews can take forever. So I think, yeah, definitely at least a year ahead, start applying, start looking and having conversations.

Michael: 24:51

That's good. So any last words as far as, like, Doxa Collective, speaking of interns or, like, you know, where that ministry is? I think you're 2 years into Doxa Collective. Did you start it when you went to

Josh: 25:02

I did. I mean, I I graduated or finished the residency and then started this from scratch, just an LLC. So I'm still building that up and it's basically a ministry Doxa yeah, Doxa Counseling Collective. It's just a ministry for offering counseling through Portland, equipping and teaching to local churches. So I'm teaching a class at my church right now, the ABC, and then hoping to offer more classes in the future to the churches around me and then offering consultations to pastors.

Josh: 25:30

And so, currently, just trying to grow up the ministry, I think Portland is just very different.

Michael: 25:34

Mhmm.

Josh: 25:35

They're much more integrationist focused. Biddell Counseling's still new. So there's not as many people who have heard of it or are close are keen to come in. And so it's just been a lot of, like, building relationships and networking with pastors and they don't they don't know me from Adam and they're like, why should we trust you with our people? So it's it's been just a slow movement of growing people.

Josh: 25:56

Currently, I mean, the dream would be, like, to bring on other people in the future, Not quite at that capacity. I just need a full time load myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: 26:04

I would love

Michael: 26:04

to, like,

Josh: 26:05

get that in.

Michael: 26:06

Is there a is there a website for

Josh: 26:09

Collective.

Michael: 26:09

I'll put that in the show notes, and I would imagine you have some sort of maybe info ad or something where if people have questions, they wanna try to connect with you, they

Josh: 26:16

can reach out. Yeah. You can I think it's doctor counseling atgmail.com? Yeah.

Michael: 26:20

I'll go to the website and confirm

Josh: 26:22

and put that yeah. You go ahead and put that

Michael: 26:23

in the show notes. Well, Josh, thank you so much for joining us, man. I appreciate, and I imagine I'm gonna continue to see you at the May to minister conferences. Sure. And then maybe the ABC conference.

Michael: 26:32

You plan on going to the conference?

Josh: 26:33

I will see. I'm not sure yet. Okay. But Okay. Hopefully.

Michael: 26:35

Alright. Well, thank you, Josh. Hey, guys. Thank you for listening. Again, it's early in 2024.

Michael: 26:40

So if you have any topics, anything you'd like for us to talk about, please email topics at speak the truth dot org. We love you. We thank you, and we'll see you next time.