Show Intro: 00:08

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship.

Michael: 00:19

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Shauna: 00:21

Yo. Yo.

Michael: 00:22

Oh, again, not a unfamiliar voice.

Shauna: 00:24

Yep. No. Loving to be back. Yes. Loving this trip at Oregon and trying some of the new stuff that they have.

Shauna: 00:31

So Doctor Brew, kombucha, I don't know if you any of our listeners are kombucha drinkers, but they have a flavor called Lemon Grove, and it's so good. And they don't sell that in Texas,

Michael: 00:39

or at least I don't know.

Shauna: 00:40

So I'm gonna have

Michael: 00:44

to what do I do? Take some on the airplane back home? You could probably get those on Amazon, I would imagine.

Shauna: 00:46

It's really hard coming to Oregon because they have lots of restaurants. They make so much stuff here, their own jam, cream cheese, candles, chocolate, kombucha, like, all this stuff. And so we are here. We're trying all these new things, and then, like, I have to go home back to Texas and just eat a lot of barbecue, I guess. Yeah.

Shauna: 01:03

But if any of our listeners come to Oregon, okay, this is something I must try. I had it last night. It was the best sandwich, like, I've ever had.

Michael: 01:10

The weirdest concoction ever.

Shauna: 01:11

I forgot the name of it, but it's technically a PBJ sandwich with bacon and blue cheese on it. And it was so good.

Michael: 01:19

And bacon. Right? Bacon, blue cheese.

Shauna: 01:21

So peanut butter, jam, like their jam, bacon and blue cheese, and it was on toasted bread. Oh my goodness.

Michael: 01:28

Three flavors I would never try to put together.

Shauna: 01:30

I've gotta figure out a way to even just squeeze it in as a snack or something this weekend because it was so good. So I forgot to mention this on the other podcast, but I had to

Michael: 01:39

just take a little Public service announcement. Here we go.

Shauna: 01:42

Service announcement. You come to Oregon. Please try the sandwich. We'll have to put in the show notes maybe where the restaurant is or whatever. But, anyway, so good.

Shauna: 01:49

So

Michael: 01:50

Was taproot.

Shauna: 01:51

Whatever. Okay. Yep. And then what everybody is telling us while we're here is this weather is really great. So I guess not normal weather that we're experiencing here in Oregon, but it's sunny.

Michael: 02:01

We get 300 days of sunshine a year.

Shauna: 02:03

It's really awesome. But we don't get the mountains.

Michael: 02:05

No. We don't. The green trees Yeah. And all the

Shauna: 02:08

other amazing things we get to see here. So

Michael: 02:10

Yes. Yes.

Shauna: 02:11

But it's been fun. It's fun to be back.

Michael: 02:13

Yeah. It is. So we are

Shauna: 02:15

episode new.

Michael: 02:16

Continuing. Yep. Continuing our episodes and miniseries at the Made to Minister Conference 2024, the God of all comfort. And as we have had, we continue to have some guests with us. And we're proud and excited to hear from our next guest.

Michael: 02:31

We have Kristin Silvallender, who is a CCF JBC writer and private practice biblical counseling in Portland. And we're excited to have you. How are you?

Kristin: 02:42

I'm doing well. Really glad to be here with you guys.

Michael: 02:45

Yes. Looking forward to it.

Shauna: 02:46

I met Kristen the first time at the CCF conference this last October.

Michael: 02:50

She taught

Shauna: 02:51

on the trauma track. Yeah. You didn't go.

Michael: 02:52

I didn't go. To go. So if any

Shauna: 02:54

of our listeners went to the CCF conference, which is one of ABC's favorite partners. And so yeah. So how was that conference? It y'all had a really great turnout.

Kristin: 03:04

Absolutely. I think it's one of our biggest Yeah. Conferences ever.

Shauna: 03:08

Yeah. Do you feel like it was the topic, location, or just the just experience in the growth of CCF?

Kristin: 03:14

I think the topic certainly has something to do with it. Trauma is one of those things where as biblical counselors, as Christians, that we don't always know what to do with. Sure. And a lot of what we hear doesn't necessarily come from a Christian perspective, so having somebody who's gonna talk biblically about this thing that's so infiltrated the way we we see and view our world

Shauna: 03:35

Yeah.

Kristin: 03:36

Yeah. It was appealing.

Shauna: 03:37

And so the topic that you spoke on was coping strategies, how Christ fully accomplishes what our flawed strategies imperfectly attempt. Yeah. That's awesome.

Kristin: 03:46

That's a mouthful.

Shauna: 03:48

It's a really great title. And so Michael will put that obviously in the show notes if you wanna check it out. But some of our listeners might not be familiar with you. And so would you mind just introducing yourself for them? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kristin: 03:58

Yeah. I've been counseling, I've been counseling now for about 12 12 years up here in Portland. I got into biblical counseling. I I'd actually received some really negative biblical counseling when I was in college and had sworn it off and said, I'm none of that. No.

Kristin: 04:14

I'm not doing that. But it's sort of the way I'm wired to be a counselor. And so I I'd gone and done campus ministry for a while and then went to seminary to become a professor. So that's the path I had in my mind. I wanna learn theology, but I wanna make it really applicable to people's lives, which now in retrospect, you look back and you think, well, duh, a biblical counselor, Kristen.

Kristin: 04:36

But but at that time, it it wasn't obvious to me. So I started at Westminster Seminary California studying theology and got about a semester in and realized I like reading about Greek verbs or whatever, but I don't ever wanna be producing that. I don't ever wanna write this stuff in academic journals. And I had a friend say, well, you should really check out these CCEF people. I said, no.

Kristin: 05:02

I don't wanna do biblical counseling. And she said, I think they might be a little different than what you'd experienced. And so I I said, okay. She she took the dynamics of biblical change course with me. And I just remember hearing David Powlison bring scripture into the details of life and very tangibly thought thought, whatever he's doing, that's what I wanna do.

Kristin: 05:27

That that is what that is where I'm pointed. And so started a roundabout path to figure out how does one get into the biblical counseling world Is that around 2010? Where do you where do you go to do these things? Yeah. Yeah.

Kristin: 05:41

Through random connections and my church and different things, ended up at an internship at CCEF, which was it was a pretty big game changer for me to move into counseling professionally. At that point, I still thought I was gonna go back to my church in California, but the lord closed those doors, and so I packed up all my earthly belongings and landed in Portland.

Shauna: 06:04

And what brought you to Portland? I had talked specific?

Kristin: 06:08

I had talked to a guy out here who was doing biblical counseling, and he had graduated from my seminary. And he said he was at the spot where he's saying, oh, yeah. A female counselor would be a good thing. And so I had this expectation that I was gonna come out, and he was gonna I was a brand new counselor, brand spanking new, just out of my internship, and thought, okay. I'll go out, and he'll he'll help train me, and, he'll help me figure this out.

Kristin: 06:34

And a great guy, but just none of that. I I felt like I got thrown into the deep end.

Shauna: 06:40

Like, oh.

Kristin: 06:40

So he introduced me to all of these different churches in I stayed stayed. Stayed until it worked, which was a few years out, and the Lord was kind to me in in sustaining me in those kind of meager first years. But as I grew and grew as a counselor and grew in my relationship with churches, kinda found a found a place here to serve his church and to serve his kingdom through biblical counseling from from a unique angle. Mhmm.

Shauna: 07:14

That's awesome. So tell us a little bit about, like, the Portland culture. Were they pretty accepting for biblical counseling? Like, what's what's been that experience? I think

Kristin: 07:25

it has been a it has been a long road to to establish a reputation in Portland as a biblical counselor. There's a little bit of a suspicion, which I get because I had that kinda had that myself. A little suspicion that maybe this this is simplistic. Maybe we're just trying to slap bible verses on on things that are more complex. Mhmm.

Kristin: 07:46

So you have that. And I think another challenge in Portland is there's just not a lot of Christians. There are some good there are good churches, and the church is strong, but it is little comparatively. And so you have a a small section of the population that professes Christ. And then of that, you have a lot of people who are suspicious of what we do.

Kristin: 08:08

So I over the years, it's just been really lovely to create relationship and starting to get referrals, not for people who wanted biblical counseling, but people who began to call because you really helped my friend. Or my friend talked about coming to see you and just found Christ said Christ was at the center of this.

Shauna: 08:26

So I

Kristin: 08:27

don't know. I was surprised at the beginning people would say, I don't really care what kind of counseling is. Just that's what I want. So getting to know getting to counsel as a biblical counselor when people had no idea what what it was was unique. Because out east, it's so well established.

Kristin: 08:47

People go to CCEF because they know CCEF, and their church has known CCEF. And so the kind of the the apologetic for it, I wasn't ready for coming out here. Even in I grew up in the San Diego area, it was well biblical counseling was well known in my little circle. So coming to Portland, that has been a challenge where it's just not super even the church isn't very familiar with it. And a lot of churches even now, they'll they'll come across me because somebody in their church is seeing me and be shocked and so surprised that this exists, which is funny.

Shauna: 09:24

It's interesting that you mentioned the fact that there's not as many believers in Portland. And here we are, Michael and I are from Texas, and we live in the DFW metroplex. And not speaking for all of Texas, but in our area, I mean, we just have mega churches. I mean and they're on every corner like a McDonald's. It's just there's so many, and it's almost like an intro, like, question.

Shauna: 09:45

Hey. My name is Shauna. Like, what church do you go to? And so depending on what church that they say, it almost can you'll actually glean a little bit from them of what they're doing and what's going on with that church because you're familiar with a lot of them. And so but yet still and even a lot of those megachurches that they actually don't have biblical counseling either.

Shauna: 10:04

They have a lot of programs and things that are trying to have care, but not everyone has intentional 1 on 1, which we're growing in that. We've thankfully, the Lord has used us in that way. But when we come to Oregon, one of the things as I, you know, was visiting Salem Heights and just meeting everyone, just the thought process of their, like, we would never ask that as an opening question of what church do you go to. You meet someone in the park, that that's that's you're you could meet them 4 or 5 times before you even mention that you're a believer at that.

Kristin: 10:33

Right? Then you find out if they are, you get all excited that, oh, there's somebody else.

Shauna: 10:38

Yeah. So I I tell Michael all the time, like, when I'd come back, I'm like, I think in just Oregon, it feels like this elite they're elite Christians, I mean, in a way that, like, if you go to church and you tell someone a believer, like, you're serious about god and the word. And and so I've just really appreciated that. But just thinking about the culture of Portland and even just what the state of Oregon in general has to go to to create a private practice to offer biblical counseling. I can see how that might be difficult.

Shauna: 11:03

Right? You're just not getting this warm welcome, and people are just storming to you. Right? Right.

Kristin: 11:08

But you embed yourself in a community, and you get to know the believing Yes. The believing body around you, and it it starts to grow that way. It is good to be connected connected to some really good strong churches in Portland. Yeah.

Michael: 11:24

Yeah. Do you know sorry. Really quick.

Shauna: 11:25

Eulogy still in

Michael: 11:26

Well, no. That's what I was Thomas Terry

Shauna: 11:28

Yeah.

Michael: 11:29

Is

Shauna: 11:30

Oh, do you know him?

Kristin: 11:31

Yeah. Well Well the the believing community in Portland is pretty small.

Michael: 11:35

Yeah. Why have we been not said hi

Shauna: 11:37

since we've been here?

Michael: 11:38

Well, no. Art Asserta was the pastor at Trinity years ago. And then Thomas Terry and Brian and Cortland Urbano and those guys and Beautiful Eulogy, Humblebee saw that. I loved them going back years ago. Uh-huh.

Michael: 11:52

And I actually just looked them up just to make sure I had it right and I because I was gonna ask you, do you know Trinity? Do you know are you familiar with those guys? Yeah.

Kristin: 12:00

Yeah. I attend a church that's a plant out of Trinity and do work with Saving Grace, Brian's Church, every once in a while.

Michael: 12:06

So Brian okay. Because I noticed he's not on the website.

Kristin: 12:09

Oh, he's not on the website? No. With Saving Grace?

Michael: 12:11

No. Not no. On Trinity. Because he was an elder, and I'm, like, looking and it and so okay. That makes sense.

Kristin: 12:17

Down in Milwaukee, oh, probably. It's probably a file over 5 years ago that he's been has his own church down there now.

Michael: 12:25

Wow. Like Milwaukee, Oregon?

Shauna: 12:26

Milwaukee, Oregon. Yeah.

Michael: 12:27

Okay. I'm sorry.

Shauna: 12:29

So are they still doing are they still doing music?

Michael: 12:31

I they haven't produced, like, a album in quite some time. So this

Shauna: 12:35

is a little plug. We need you to go back to them and say, hey. We need some new music.

Michael: 12:39

I didn't see anything on there as far as, like, biblical counseling or care. Do they have anything like that?

Kristin: 12:44

They don't have any neither one of those churches have anything formal. I don't think there's any I don't know of any church that has really formal there's some formal biblical counseling ministries in the city. Most of them will yeah. They'll refer out to different counselors.

Michael: 13:00

So they're just not the the idea of having a formal counseling ministry within the church.

Shauna: 13:04

Right.

Michael: 13:05

Under the church.

Kristin: 13:05

Under the church.

Michael: 13:06

Yeah.

Kristin: 13:07

Yeah. In Portland, that there there are certain challenges that come with that, particularly because some of the major, like, the seminaries in town kinda they teach a different a different perspective on counseling. So you get a little more of an integrationist

Michael: 13:22

Yeah.

Kristin: 13:22

Coming out of Multnomah or coming out of Western. So that's

Michael: 13:25

Or it's more like clinical and therapeutic? Or what do you Depending.

Kristin: 13:29

Depending. You know, that

Michael: 13:30

It's on that spectrum. On the

Shauna: 13:32

yeah. You know that. Right?

Kristin: 13:35

Yeah. So I I think a lot of folks who are influenced by those 2 institutions again, that it's just not where they're coming from to be to to look into biblical counseling. They have more of a mindset of an integration and sometimes more more clinically informed or more biblically informed.

Michael: 13:52

So there's really not a a bridging of those two views. It's just sort of like, y'all have your market. We have our market. At least, functionally, it sort of appears that way.

Kristin: 14:01

Yeah. Yeah. And I think where where you see the bridging is in the actual counseling. Again, where I where people come to see me as a biblical counselor, and they may have seen therapists in the past. Yeah.

Kristin: 14:14

And they said, I just wanted somebody who would talk about Jesus more robustly. Mhmm. And so for them, they're not thinking about biblical versus integration counseling. Yeah. But that and you've had some counselors even trained out of those, either of those that are really intentional about bringing Christ in.

Kristin: 14:32

But every counselor makes counseling their own.

Michael: 14:34

Yeah. I mean, when we when Sean and I, did counseling because that's part of our story. Yeah. That we needed care. And we went to our church, and they didn't have any care.

Michael: 14:43

Yeah. And so they referred us out, and it happened to be Jeremy Lillich. And the first thing he did was open James 4 with us.

Shauna: 14:50

Well, we don't have to talk about what

Michael: 14:51

we went to. I mean, you mean the married couple doesn't have problems and you fit yeah. Yeah.

Shauna: 14:56

We don't have to share that much. But yes. And it got to that point. It was like, man, we're paying a lot for just walking through scripture and stuff.

Michael: 15:05

Just gonna walk through scripture and we're gonna talk about it, and then the holy spirit's gonna work on it? Interesting.

Shauna: 15:10

And boy and boy, he did.

Michael: 15:11

Yeah. Yeah.

Shauna: 15:13

Yeah. And boy he did. Yeah.

Michael: 15:14

That was Okay. Well, that that's helpful because it's interesting to just I mean, you alluded to the East Coast and then where we are down in the very churched culture and then different states and, obviously, the Pacific Northwest where it's there's not a church on every corner. It's not a conversation point unless it's like, in other parts, it's cool to be Christian. Right. Or you don't talk about it unless you're about it.

Kristin: 15:37

Yeah. Yeah. And yet even I think people are cautious about when they when they bring that up. I I want this relationship to grow

Michael: 15:44

a little bit Yeah.

Kristin: 15:44

Before I let you know Yeah.

Michael: 15:45

Don't ruin it.

Shauna: 15:46

That's right.

Kristin: 15:47

Yeah. Let's get to know each other, and then I'll tell you how much I love the Lord. Yeah. Yeah. It's a different world here.

Kristin: 15:54

Yeah. Like, another challenge here in Portland is that the the culture of the northwest is one of super independence. Pull yourself up by your own boucher.

Michael: 16:03

So that rugged individualism is alive and well here.

Kristin: 16:05

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And that I think that that affects biblical counseling here too because the biblical counseling is so woven into the church. Right?

Kristin: 16:15

Yeah. That our goal is, how can we connect you back into the life and body of the church?

Michael: 16:20

Yeah. We are integrationists in a different way.

Kristin: 16:22

That's right. We integrate you into the the

Shauna: 16:24

body of Christ. Yes.

Kristin: 16:25

Right? And that kind of flows against this. No. I do it on my own, which I think is probably part of why, at least in Portland, it's been challenging for the church to really take hold of, like, church run biblical counseling centers because people are pretty culturally, we're a little suspicious of that up here. Not sure that we want our church to play that role in our lives.

Michael: 16:48

So Salem's kind of an anomaly.

Kristin: 16:50

It is. I mean, it's so it's so fantastic what's happening down here. Yeah. You'll talk to Emily, and she'll tell you, well, it's just because we're doing good. People are people are hearing Christ, and they start sending their their friends.

Shauna: 17:03

Yeah. But one of the things I have to say is a lot of the the previous podcast before Kristen came on and joined us is biblical counseling in local church, which is where we want it to be, right, which is exactly what you're saying. But on the flip side, it is good to have our counseling practices in the community as well Mhmm. Because to be able to connect to those that aren't a part of a local body, right, or might not even want to do that as their first step, but still having that as a part of the counseling process.

Kristin: 17:30

Mhmm.

Shauna: 17:30

That's still a part of this process as we're doing counseling over here outside of the church. We're still wanting you to get back in in the support that a local church body can give you. And so, I mean, that's why I just think counseling practices is still important, and it's about just equipping in in the different paths. And you're also doing another aspect that I think is really important in vocal counseling is the supervision part.

Michael: 17:52

Mhmm.

Shauna: 17:52

And sometimes, a lot of those who get trained to become a vocal counselor almost skip this part where they're they're ready to start practicing, but they just skip that oversight part, which I have found one of the most valuable parts of my experience in growth as a vocal counselor. And so you're counseling you're supervising counseling interns. Right? Can you tell us a little bit about that and our listeners of of what you do there?

Kristin: 18:13

Yeah. And that's been a heart of mine is is training and equipping new counselors. I told you a little bit of my story. I landed in Portland, and I felt just like a brand new fish. Didn't know how to swim, and I had some good support far away, but but didn't feel like I had consultation groups and people people who were helping me think through cases.

Kristin: 18:38

I had people I could call if I was really stuck, but just that regular interaction and community was lacking. And so as I've grown in my own career and gotten to the point where I had something to offer, started opening up the opportunity to see interns. I worked with I worked with CCEF's distance ed program for about 10 years

Michael: 18:59

Oh, wow.

Kristin: 19:00

Doing grading for them, and then worked with Westminster as an instructor with their grad school program a little bit through CCEF. I just really enjoyed that, enjoyed enjoyed helping students think through things, enjoyed seeing where where the material where they were struggling to implement it and how they were struggling to think about it. So it was natural next step to start taking interns who were now starting to counsel, and I love it. I love meeting with a new counselor and thinking through what are the biblical themes that you're using here? What are the things that are informing where you're going, and how do we start to get creative with how we how we might use scripture.

Kristin: 19:40

So that those conversations are really fun. Yeah. And then teaching them how to as we we have our groups together. I have about 8 interns now. So we get together and talk through cases, but challenging, okay, what do you hear here?

Kristin: 19:53

What are the things? Biblically, what's informing what we're listening to? Yeah. So I enjoy that, but mostly take interns from Westminster, But I have gotten some random people from RTS and, let's see, Southwest Southwest Baptist. Just people who who stumble upon me somehow and want a different perspective of just supervision.

Michael: 20:17

Mhmm.

Kristin: 20:18

So I'm really blessed to hear different institutions out there who are teaching biblical counseling too.

Shauna: 20:23

Yeah. That's really good. Like, we as you can see, Michael and I, we go to southern.

Michael: 20:27

So we're

Shauna: 20:27

southern seminary students, and we just love that. But one of the things that when we were putting our level

Michael: 20:33

2 supervision pathway together for ABC, as John and

Shauna: 20:33

I were talking, when when in counseling and have never really had get their PhD in in counseling and have never really had supervision or even been in the counseling room. And that so we just wanted that to be an important part of the process. Right? And so which is crazy to think about, but in a lot of ways, the supervision part is where even somebody can find an important an important part of the process, it's still hard to either find someone to do that for them. Maybe the charge is there, and they might not think of it an investment that they can avoid and not and not do.

Shauna: 21:14

And so when you think or or just the time aspect of it. Right? I mean, I think is is a part of the process too. But when you think of the fruitfulness of supervision, like, why would you, like, what maybe how what's an encouragement that you could give to the students out there that might be listening to say, hey. Supervision is really beneficial for what are some of the things that you think?

Kristin: 21:33

I think one of the things that comes to my mind right away is it's really easy for your counseling to become stale.

Michael: 21:41

Mhmm. Yep.

Kristin: 21:42

Right? That you've got your go to passages. You've got the things you have in your mind and that you continue you just continue to to follow that path. I think supervision and and having a even consultation groups, having groups of other counselors that you're talking to, keep keep you flexible, right, to think through, oh, there's a different angle to come on. And I I think that having somebody come in and expand expand your possibilities is so critical at the when you are a brand new counselor or you are a new counselor, it's just way too tempting to make things more simplistic than they should be because that's comfortable for you.

Kristin: 22:22

So you hear you can hear a threat of something, and you think, oh, that's the direction I should go.

Michael: 22:27

That has a pulse. Let me jump on that.

Kristin: 22:29

Exactly. Right? And to have somebody who has a little more experience who can help you think through what are the 5 other things that might be operating there, slow down. What are the different directions you could take? Somebody who can get to know your counseling a little bit and know you all you often reach for this tool.

Kristin: 22:48

Let's see if we can grow a different tool. And whether or not that's gonna be the right one for this person is a different story, but that's that's that movement from simplistic counseling just to having a whole toolbox. You need other people to grow that toolbox. You need other brains that have interacted with scripture in a different a different direction. You need to be hearing people who are who have honed on a different part of that Psalm and who have camped there in their life and to talk through that together.

Kristin: 23:17

I just think it's so valuable. But I think in my own life, it was it was the growing humility that this is far more complex than I originally saw, and having a supervisor who would who would help me see that, that was so helpful.

Shauna: 23:31

Yeah. And as God calls us to live out the one another scriptures, that also means as the counselor. Absolutely. To be able to know that you also need someone in as a one another to support you and and help you grow in godliness and and even our own hearts. But I love that just even stretching us.

Shauna: 23:47

And some of the ABC, we produce some resources called counseling through. And one of the things that has asked has have asked different authors to contribute, sometimes they'll select the same passage. And instead of asking them to do another one, I'll say, no. Go ahead and let's have multiple versions. And it's been so cool to see how someone would take, say, a Psalms or another passage, and they would use that in a counseling context in a different way of sharing right hope to to them.

Shauna: 24:13

And so it's the same concept where supervision, you can get the different perspectives. You'll grow. You'll they'll see things differently. And then even where in my supervision where I I could be called out on body language, or did I listen well there? I walked away thinking that was a great session.

Shauna: 24:27

He heard the audio, and he's like, not so much.

Kristin: 24:30

So you kinda trampled over your counselor there.

Shauna: 24:32

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I'm also not seeing myself, and so I don't have the most pleasant resting face. And so when I'm trying to listen well, how is my face expressing that I'm listening and I'm encouraged by what you're saying?

Shauna: 24:46

Right? Or or I'm expressing the concern or sorrow that they have. Right? So just being aware of and those are just so simple things, but, man, through the process of having welcoming someone's feedback and inviting them into that process to help me intentionally grow so I can care well, I mean, that's also modeling a bit of humility. Right?

Kristin: 25:04

Absolutely.

Shauna: 25:04

And being able to accept that that's not so well or that passage didn't work. Like, that one fell flat. Yeah. Yeah. And for me, I got called out where I gave gospel hope to an unbeliever.

Shauna: 25:14

So I used the 2nd Corinthians, right, that are that we're wasting away, but we're being renewed day by day. And he's, so were you counseling a believer there? And I'm like, I think so, but I don't I I don't know for sure. Well, you actually encourage them, but you encourage some of the scripture that might not be for them. And what would be an alternative?

Shauna: 25:32

Well, Matthew. Right? Come to where Jesus says, come to me all who are weary. I will give them rest. And so those types of things is because I took the step back and let allowed him to see in that, he was able to ask questions for me to discern and think it through.

Shauna: 25:46

And then do you do case reports with your super just in supervision? Do they do case reports for you or anything like that?

Kristin: 25:51

I have them tape sessions that I watch, and then I review their notes.

Shauna: 25:55

Oh, that's great. Okay. That's that's our Yeah.

Kristin: 25:57

Strategy.

Shauna: 25:57

So so you're able to see them in that way. But when I did case reports of of having that intentional time after a counseling session to sit and actually think through these questions and be intentional in the case, which when they have supervision and they're talking that over, they're processing it, and so they're growing. Oh, absolutely. So much just fruit in the so hopefully this can make sure to put in the title, we love supervision. Yes.

Shauna: 26:22

Do supervision in the title notes, Michael.

Michael: 26:24

Yeah. It'll definitely be in there.

Shauna: 26:26

Who's speaking into your sessions, mister?

Michael: 26:28

I'm just sitting here. Yeah. I need to implement that. I need to implement that. I need to implement that.

Shauna: 26:33

We we used to do that when we were doing marriage counseling. Right? We would do, like, decrease, and we would encourage each other. Don't know if I recommend that early on in comparison. Yeah.

Shauna: 26:43

That's right. But, no, it went well. It was fine.

Kristin: 26:46

I think too, as counselors, counseling can be such a solo endeavor because you're in the room with someone, just the 2 of you, and the accountability of being right? I'm not I'm not the one I'm not the one helping you. I know it's the spirit, but the accountability of having another believer pushing me towards that Holy Trinity. I still have a supervisor, right, a woman that I talk with regularly about my cases, because we just it it pushes against the site that that human arrogance that says I can help. I'm the one to help you.

Kristin: 27:22

Mhmm. No. I'm I'm I'm in need of help, and I'm I'm offering this alongside of the person having somebody in your life who's who has that role is really significant. Mhmm. Even just that reminder, I need counsel too.

Shauna: 27:44

That's so good. Now you're a writer for the Journal of Biblical Counseling articles that's, published by, CCEF, and these are articles that they've been doing for over 10 years. Right?

Michael: 27:56

I mean, it's not

Shauna: 27:57

a little bit longer. And Since the nineties. Right?

Kristin: 28:00

Yeah. Maybe.

Michael: 28:01

Well, I know. I know. Yeah. Well, Jay Adams was he did have something was it personal ministry or some something

Kristin: 28:08

The Journal of of Personal Yeah. Pastoral ministry.

Michael: 28:10

Yeah. It was like that in the seventies, and then he's so so I mean Yeah.

Shauna: 28:13

So a long time.

Michael: 28:14

Because that was going back to CCF back in the original days before it. And then he was I guess, even Westminster is like that too. Right? Are they in Escondido?

Kristin: 28:23

Yeah. Westminster, California. Yeah. Escondido.

Shauna: 28:25

So if any of our listeners aren't familiar with the articles, you can go to ccf.org, and there's a subscription. It's super cheap. It's a $23

Michael: 28:32

59.59 dollars, I think, digital.

Shauna: 28:34

But it, like, a

Michael: 28:35

year looking at you to qualify what I just said. So

Shauna: 28:37

But it's a year subscription. You get access to all the articles, even the new ones. And so it's something that just the past couple years they've come out with.

Michael: 28:45

Also to for those of you who use they actually have the they have the JBC articles in their index so you can find things.

Shauna: 28:52

That's awesome. You have to buy that package.

Michael: 28:54

Yeah. But it's to your point, I mean, that too is also super affordable.

Shauna: 28:58

Either way, the way to access them. But what I like about them is it has multiple voices on there. Right? Credible counselors and pastors and authors just talking about a variety of topics from years ago to even just current. Like, how do we think through this particular area or, counsel through?

Shauna: 29:15

Right? Like, Like, how do we glean wisdom from that? And so tell me about that journey of you being a writer for them.

Kristin: 29:20

Yeah. I don't remember when my first article was. It's been a while. Writing is I I appreciate writing because it's the place where I my I have these kind of thoughts. I'll be in a passage myself, and I'll be in my in a passage with my counselees, and it's just this there's more here.

Kristin: 29:37

And writing is the thing that helps me put my finger on, okay. What's the what's the structure that I actually wanna to engage? So I think I think my first article was a counselor toolbox article about Psalm 3 and shame. Just using, you, oh, Lord, are the lifter of my head. A shield about me, my glory in the lifter of my head.

Michael: 30:01

Yeah. That one's that that's the one I actually have linked to that. It actually goes to the archives of the JPS yard.

Kristin: 30:07

Oh, yeah. Now it's now it's an archive.

Michael: 30:09

Just to put that in perspective, I've been writing a little while. That's right.

Kristin: 30:13

That's right. But that I mean, even now I that's one of my favorite passages to use, be part of from that writing journey. And and I have sending sending it off for editing, having David come back and say, right, which was just such a

Michael: 30:28

How cool is that?

Shauna: 30:29

Oh, what a good

Michael: 30:30

name drop. Name drop. Name drop. Name drop. Name drop.

Michael: 30:31

David review my any of my articles. Yeah. Okay.

Kristin: 30:37

If you read it, the best line in there is actually his. There's just one beautifully written line. I was like, well, I have to put it in there, but it's

Shauna: 30:44

it's David Balson's voice. Awesome. Yeah. That's cool.

Michael: 30:48

That is that is awesome.

Kristin: 30:50

So I I enjoy it's where I think, and then they help me sharpen my thinking in the writing.

Shauna: 30:57

Which that's a gift in itself, isn't it? Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, for that, I think we one of the ones we have on here is the Lord comes near using the name of the Lord in counseling.

Michael: 31:07

Yeah.

Shauna: 31:07

Is that one of the recent ones? Or

Kristin: 31:08

That's my most recent one. Okay. And one of my I've been thinking about using scripture thematically in counseling. How do we engage big themes in a counseling session? Because a counseling session, you just have little bites.

Kristin: 31:23

Right? We can't sit and have a theological lesson about what the name of the lord means, and yet there's verses that have such beautiful imagery. The name of the lord is a strong tower. But I'll say that to somebody in counseling, and often I'll get back. That's great, but what does that mean?

Kristin: 31:40

Mhmm. Right? And so I wanted to really think, how do I use this really well in the midst of a crisis when when we we need a strong tower? So tracing. Okay.

Kristin: 31:52

What does what is this doing in all of scripture? What are what is it accessing, and how might I bring somebody into that? What are some practical ways to just use that to to have it be presented as a bite size, but access just the full weight of scripture behind it. So that's what that was. It was a it was my a thought process.

Kristin: 32:15

How do I can I communicate this idea that's running through my head?

Michael: 32:19

No. That's good because a lot of times here, some of the points you were making earlier of course it was in the context of supervision, but it's like you're trying to address one thing, but there could there's easily 4 or 5 other things. Yeah. And so trying to systematize at least a a process and, like, what we're actually trying to get to together, at least thematically, you because if it's one thing and helping them see that threaded throughout scripture and then that topic and the reality of that in their life starts getting that scope gets wider and wider and wider. Uh-huh.

Michael: 32:49

And then being able to transition into something else thematically like that, it just allows them to just build that. Mhmm. Because oftentimes, it's I it's like some of the points we were making earlier is just, okay, we it's reductionistic. Just throw a verse on it. It's all good.

Michael: 33:04

No. No. They have to apply spiritual disciplines. And even in that, it's and I I'm curious in closing just to try to bring it back to the culture of Portland. And I would argue it's the culture just at large in evangelicalism, but just the lack of spiritual disciplines with believers.

Michael: 33:19

Like, how often in counseling where a lot of it really is, helping our develop spiritual disciplines.

Kristin: 33:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: 33:27

You you know what I mean?

Kristin: 33:28

I think the hard thing about a spiritual discipline is it flies against the culture of instant gratification. Right? And that you find that in folks who are seeking counseling sometimes. It's a therapeutic culture we live in where Yeah. If I go to counseling, that's gonna fix my problem.

Kristin: 33:44

Well, no. Counseling and I think even a therapist would say that. Well, no. We don't fix you here. Right?

Michael: 33:49

You have

Kristin: 33:49

to do the work. But as as biblical counselors, no. There's a slow slow process of learning how to speak to the Lord and speak to him regularly, and he he works in in that angst. We actually don't necessarily wanna get rid of that yet. Let's let's use that.

Kristin: 34:07

Let's wrestle with him. Let's direct that and bring it into scripture.

Michael: 34:12

Which is an interesting thought because how dare we think that you mean he would actually choose me to continue to be uncomfortable so that it drives me to him?

Kristin: 34:21

Yeah. That's not popular.

Michael: 34:23

That's not therapeutic at all. I didn't that's not that's not therapeutic. That But

Shauna: 34:27

that's not fixing this.

Michael: 34:28

Yeah. You know what I so but but I think that's the interesting juxtaposition in that, though, is that's that's oftentimes how he works. Absolutely. Because he's more interested in the relationship than fixing the problem because he is the fix. Uh-huh.

Michael: 34:42

Yeah.

Kristin: 34:43

He's not necessarily taking away the anxiety.

Michael: 34:47

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's

Kristin: 34:48

what he's using.

Michael: 34:49

But but that doesn't help because you're kinda like, yeah. It just wasn't working. We weren't a good fit. But it's just anyway. So it just it is it's just I was just curious how that works in that culture too because you made a point earlier of just that individualism is alive and well in Portland just because, obviously, it's a humanistic culture.

Michael: 35:08

So, of course, it's gonna be rugged and strong. So I'm just curious just the extra degree in which you experienced that in Portland.

Kristin: 35:16

No. That's a great question. And it it I think the thing that comes to my mind is I've learned to be winsome

Michael: 35:23

about it.

Kristin: 35:24

You have different types of Christians that come in for biblical counseling, and some are coming in like, alright, I want the word of God. Let's get to this. So that's great. Let's do that. But then you have some who who aren't necessarily bought in on that.

Kristin: 35:37

They're coming because their friends said that I was helpful. And so that I'm gentle with that idea. Right? So we're going there and I I try and help them experience it first and then I point it out. Right?

Kristin: 35:52

So let's let me walk you to this and then let me tell you what's just happened to set the stage that we want more of that. Yeah. That's the good thing. But if I come in if I come in and say that, no. No.

Kristin: 36:03

No. We're not necessarily trying to get rid of this hard stuff. They're gonna bounce out. Yeah. But learning how to yes.

Kristin: 36:11

How how can we walk to get a taste of this? How can we taste and see that the lord is good here, and then casting that vision forward?

Michael: 36:20

No. That's really helpful too to close out. So for those of you in listeners of just the last 4 or 5 episodes that we've been, recording for this miniseries at the Mid to Minister Conference and and just the things that we've been talking about. How many of you feeling lonely and just because we talked about that earlier too. But just needing that help and realizing that and don't don't lose polishing or strengthening those tools, like we mentioned earlier.

Michael: 36:49

And one of those tools that are never gonna get old, that always need to be used is the discovery. Right? It's just because like you're saying, if you're not listening well and discovering kind of the fuller breadth and scope of what's going on with this person, understanding, like, maybe how they engage with God's word or kind of where where they are, their personality, like, all of those variables matter and how a person engages with the word. So I appreciate that of just acknowledging that because I do think sometimes earlier, like, we can get into that canned Uh-huh. Response and scripture verses.

Michael: 37:17

So that's that's good. That's super helpful.

Shauna: 37:19

I'm so inspired by you. I just I mean, not only the yeah. I just wanna become a better counselor. And just your love for the Lord, it just I mean, you could just feel it and hear it, and what a blessing it would be to be counseled by you and be supervised. And so just thank you for the work that you're doing.

Michael: 37:36

Yeah. Thank you.

Shauna: 37:36

You're not all you're just investing in so many, and thank you for your time just to be with us. And I pray our listeners are just as encouraged as I am today. Yeah.

Michael: 37:44

Thank you, Kristen. We appreciate it.

Kristin: 37:46

That's been a gift to be here with you. Thank you.

Michael: 37:47

Awesome. Thank you, guys. Again, I'm gonna put all of her publications and blogs and everything else. I would definitely encourage you to check them out. I'll put them in the show notes.

Michael: 37:56

Again, we're early in 2024, so any topics or anything that you'd like for us to talk about, please reach out to us, topics at speak the truth dot org. Thank you for listening. We love you guys, and we'll see you next time.

Shauna: 38:06

Bye.