Michael: 00:08

Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church and counseling

Michael: 00:19

and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. Yo.

Michael: 00:22

There it is. That unfamiliar voice has now become a little more familiar. Mhmm. My wife, Shauna. And we are continuing our little miniseries here at the May to Minister Conference 2024, the god of all comfort.

Michael: 00:34

And as we've continued with some of our special guests, we have another special guest with us. We have Beth Clays with us.

Beth: 00:41

Hello.

Michael: 00:41

Beth, how are you?

Beth: 00:42

I'm good.

Michael: 00:43

Good. I'm actually looking forward to this episode because you bring a particular background

Beth: 00:48

I do.

Michael: 00:49

Into the conversation. And Beth is in Washington state in Vancouver. Right? And she's gonna tell a little bit about her story, but she also has an article in The Gospel Coalition, which actually came out this time last year or a little after. It's been a good year.

Michael: 01:04

I noticed the the date stamp on that.

Beth: 01:06

Yes.

Michael: 01:07

But, anyway, she's gonna be sharing her story and just coming from, really, this psychologized world. And what I mean that is professor, and she'll get into the details of that, but just her journey into the biblical counseling world and just being able to operate within both worlds, so to speak. Yeah. Within her current context. And, Beth, with that being said, could you just share a little bit of your journey, obviously, back in the day and what led you into biblical counseling and kind of the context that you find yourself in now?

Beth: 01:33

Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to. I'm a licensed psychologist or was a licensed psychologist in New York state, and the trajectory there was just that I I knew I wanted to help people. And I enjoyed my psych major in undergrad and was encouraged to go to grad school, and so I I did all of that, got my doctorate.

Beth: 01:53

And in that whole time, I would have said I was a Christian. I was a Christian, but I would would also say my faith was pretty shallow in especially those kinda young adult years. Got married, started my career. And so on one hand, I was following Christ, and on the other, I had really was focused on my career, focused on my family. And

Michael: 02:19

Would you say you were comfortable?

Beth: 02:21

I was pretty comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Things were good.

Michael: 02:24

Yeah.

Beth: 02:25

And they were separate. So faith and my career did not really interact. They belonged in separate boxes in my head, and I didn't really understand people who felt like they didn't interact. In fact, the church I was attending, the pastor liked biblical counseling, and he would talk about it sometimes. And people would ask me what I thought about that and be like, oh, isn't that cute?

Beth: 02:47

They think they can counsel people. And so that was the context. And then I did private practice for a couple of years, and then I started working at a university. And I was teaching in their clinical and school psychology program. And I worked there for almost a decade.

Beth: 03:03

Halfway through that time, the Lord used used some difficult things in my life to really just get my attention. My mom was diagnosed with stage 4 ovarian cancer in 2015, and it was a very rough journey for the remainder of her life. And God just really used that. From the moment it happened, I started asking faith questions of just what do I really believe? And if I really believe these things are true, why am I not living like they're true?

Beth: 03:29

And and it just catapulted into this whole soul searching journey. And so I started reading as much as I could. I was reading books really for my own self to start with. It was like my own anxieties, my own things that I'm dealing with, my own pride, all of this. I wanna understand it.

Beth: 03:46

And that went on for about 2 years. My mom passed away during that time, and I felt like my faith got to a really good place. I really grew in my relationship with the Lord. And there was a point after about 2 years of that that for the first time, it struck me. How does everything I now think and believe fit with my profession?

Beth: 04:10

Because I had kept them separate, and

Michael: 04:11

it was so long. Practice was on a collision course.

Beth: 04:13

It was on a collision course, and the initial journey had been so personal. It was like, I'm trying to figure myself out. I'm trying to figure out my own relationship with the Lord that I had kept it separated still from my profession. And I still remember the first day I allowed myself to ask that question because it was it was jolting. And but I decided to pursue it.

Beth: 04:34

And I was like, okay. What does this mean for my profession? And so I started talking to people. I started reading more books and just, again, doing a deep dive, but more with the outward look of what does this look like? Do I still believe the same things about people that I believed before?

Beth: 04:49

Do I still believe the same things about what's wrong with us that I believed before? Do I still believe the same things about the way to help people that I believed before? And as I processed through that and read and talked to people, I just increasingly felt troubled by it. Like, I was just I don't think I believe those same things anymore. I think I had really entered into the humanism of psychology and just there was a lot in how I even taught that was ultimately pointing to finding your identity in yourself or your resources for healing within yourself.

Beth: 05:23

And I would have the experience sometimes while I was teaching because I'd been teaching a lot of the same courses for years. And so I had my rhythm of how I would say things. And sometimes I didn't do a ton of extra prep because I knew what I needed to say. And sometimes I'd be standing in front of the class, and I'd teach, and I'd say something. And as it's coming out of my mouth, I'd think, do I still believe that?

Beth: 05:49

And it was very distressing, but it was a really a really powerful experience to to see how the Lord met me in that space. Mhmm. And it continued to grow my interest in what does it look like to truly integrate faith. And now that I have my worldview had shifted, how do I actually walk alongside people, counsel them, or teach people how to counsel them in a way that's going to point them to to Jesus and to the gospel. And so I started taking classes with CCEF initially just to learn more and eventually started doing some biblical counseling through my church.

Beth: 06:27

And with Fieldstone, I know Jonathan will be down here later. That was a really good experience for me to do that. And as time went on, I increasingly felt like I can't keep teaching the way that I just felt that distress too much of the way that I thought and believed before doesn't match the way I think and believe now. And so prayed for a while of, lord, what do you have next? I'm not sure that this is what I wanna do forever anymore.

Beth: 06:54

And, eventually, there's a lot I could share there, but, eventually, that led to me moving across the country with my family from New York to Washington state. My husband's job is fully remote, and so he was able to just okay. We're gonna do this, and we joined a church in Vancouver for the purpose of starting a counseling ministry. That's the snapshot of how I got from point a to point

Michael: 07:22

b. Wow. That's pretty remarkable, just in that collision course of those philosophical convictions that you had as you were teaching beginning to really legitimately question that

Beth: 07:32

Yeah.

Michael: 07:32

To the point where I don't think I can teach this anymore. Yeah. That's difficult. Right?

Beth: 07:38

It was the word I often use to describe that season is turmoil. I just felt a lot of turmoil. I was living inconsistently with what I had come to believe, but also struggling with, how do I change that? And so the Lord did a lot of good in the last few years where I was teaching because I felt a little trapped there for a little while for all kinds of reasons. And so I was like, okay.

Beth: 08:01

I'm not free to leave yet. I'm here. How do I actually do this if my convictions are pointing this way, but I'm still here? I'm teaching in a clinical psychology program. How do I try to change the way that I'm teaching in a way that still fits with the program I'm in, but is more in line with my convictions.

Beth: 08:20

And so the god did a lot of good in that space of just it would have been a lot easier to run away sooner

Michael: 08:26

and

Beth: 08:26

just be like, forget it. I'm out. Yeah.

Michael: 08:28

But the fact that you took that and obviously recognize that was god working

Beth: 08:33

Yeah.

Michael: 08:33

Is tumultuous as it was. But to to take that and to actually transplant it into a new space with an interim working of the lord to bring you there into from that conviction, actually start a counseling ministry and leading it. And before we hit the record button, my understanding, it's been 18 months?

Beth: 08:55

20. 20.

Michael: 08:56

Yeah.

Beth: 08:58

Yes. 20 months since we, yeah, drove across the country. We took 9 days to get across the country and got in Vancouver on a Friday, and I started work on Tuesday. And here we are.

Michael: 09:11

So what has been your experience just because of some of the previous podcasts within this mini series of just talking about launching a biblical counseling ministry in the local church, having that being your proof of concept, doing it within your own local context, but then also trying to share that with other churches in the area to multiply that care that obviously hits home to you personally and what you've done. So how has the this last 20 months worked into what you've developed in your context?

Beth: 09:39

Yes. It was a lot of on the front end, not really knowing what it was gonna look like. I spent the 1st summer I was there just trying to decide. Yeah. Where are we going?

Beth: 09:50

And I as I was looking at what the options were, landed on ABC. I'd gone to the ABC conference the previous spring and really enjoyed it was the first time actually I'd I'd had exposure to ABC. I'd only really had exposure to CCEF through some online courses. We went to ABC because someone I knew, Eric Johnson, actually was like, I'm going to ABC. You should go to ABC.

Michael: 10:15

I just said Who? What?

Beth: 10:16

Yeah. And I was like, okay. And at first, I said, no. I'm not gonna do that. And then I was like, why would I not do that?

Beth: 10:21

I should do that. And so I went to the ABC conference with some of the people from the church that I was joining and loved it and felt like, man, what was really helpful to me was that we could take that curriculum and actually use it within the church. Biblical counseling was brand new to the church, New Heights, and we I knew that could be a barrier coming in of just, what are you trying to do? And so I thought I need to be able to have people learning together so that we can wrestle through that together. I didn't want to ship people off

Michael: 10:58

Yeah.

Beth: 10:59

Somewhere else. And so that appealed to me, and so I decided, you know what? We're gonna run. We're gonna run the class. We'll see how it goes.

Beth: 11:06

And I prayed, Lord, if I could get 12 people to take this class and if 3 of them would go for certification, if the other ones are just learning, I'm like, this would be a big win. 12. And so we put out feelers. Like, we did not publicize that we were doing a class or anything. It was also new.

Beth: 11:27

So it was just like, hey. People on staff, do you know people who might like to do this? And I cold emailed a bunch of people and said, come to a meeting. Learn about what we're gonna do, see if it's of interest. And we ended up with 50 some people who wanted to take the class, and 30 of them wanted to be certified.

Michael: 11:46

And all 30 finish?

Beth: 11:48

No. But most of them did. There was 3 or 4, I think.

Michael: 11:51

That's still pretty good.

Shauna: 11:52

The first class?

Beth: 11:53

Yeah. So that that was the beginnings of it. That was how we started. We ran the class. And then from there, of those 30, we put out, if you think you might want to be a part of the counseling ministry, here's the process.

Beth: 12:07

We wanted people to apply into that and build a team from that. And right now, we have a team of 12 of us that are counseling and

Michael: 12:18

type Like an official sorry. Just an official biblical counseling ministry at this point?

Beth: 12:22

Yes. So, yeah, we have it organized that we have a lay count lay counselors, people who took the class that we refer to them as level 1 counselors, and then anyone who has a professional background in counseling and has also taken the class because we wanna be philosophically minded. Yeah. Level 2 counseling with the thought that different levels of experience and education could support different kinds of cases. Yeah.

Beth: 12:47

So most of our counselors are level 1 counselors. We have one other level 2, and we're bringing on 2 more. So, yeah, that's where we are.

Shauna: 12:56

And you have a class going on right now too. This is your 2nd class. Right?

Beth: 12:59

And And there's 40 5 people in that class, and 25 of them are getting certified. And we still haven't really public tried to advertise the class.

Michael: 13:12

Yeah. It's just like word-of-mouth really. It's just

Beth: 13:14

Word-of-mouth. Yeah. And so this year, we might try to make it more. I'm at the point. I'm like, I want people to be aware that we're doing this and not just by word-of-mouth, but so I anticipate we probably have a similar sized class next year.

Beth: 13:28

We'll see.

Shauna: 13:28

That's a wonderful response

Michael: 13:30

It is.

Shauna: 13:30

To to not advertise, and yet you have so many people that have responded and see the need in the church. And whether they became part of the 12 of the formalized counseling, you're still changing the culture of the church.

Beth: 13:42

Yeah. And the Lord has just been so kind in it. Like, I just look at what my expectations were coming into this, and I'm a planner. So I wanted I make the plan and I have the goal, but I also recognize things don't always go the way you plan. And coming into this and praying, Lord, if 12 people would take the class and and having 50 some people take the class or praying that just a couple people might have an interest in just seeing what God is doing.

Beth: 14:10

It's, Lord, you're showing off. My expectations were much lower.

Shauna: 14:14

That's awesome. I love that. And correct me if I'm wrong, but did didn't you when we first met after the conference and you and I had a Zoom call, we were talking and dreaming a little bit together, didn't you did you do something with the staff before actually launching the class? Because I I feel like you had a little phase one. Right?

Beth: 14:29

Yeah. So

Shauna: 14:30

was that again?

Beth: 14:30

It was while I was actually teaching the class. We there's a on our staff, there's 40 to 50 people that regularly go to staff meeting. And so we took the ETC book, and every week at staff meeting, I led, like, a 15 minute either teaching or discussion with it. And so it took a long time because there's 39 lessons, and we missed a couple of weeks for holidays or whatever. So it was almost a year of getting into that content with the staff, and I think that was super helpful.

Beth: 15:01

Because, again, it was all brand new. Mhmm. So the there was support in the leadership, but it was not familiar to staff or people attending the church before that.

Shauna: 15:11

And so how did you see that help? Because, obviously, now you're introducing the staff. So that's leadership looking into the book and

Beth: 15:17

Yep.

Shauna: 15:18

Getting the taste of the culture of care. And so do you feel like that's something good that other churches might wanna consider? Absolutely. Yeah. Sometimes the staff might not be able to go through the class, or they're even wanting to get certified or do formalized counseling, but still learning in the equipped to counsel or learning in in the care in general, right, might be a good help.

Beth: 15:36

Yeah. For sure. I would strongly recommend it because I think it did help people to feel like they at least know what we're about and what we're doing even if they, like you said, weren't able to take the class. And it was really important to us that we were like minded in the church. And when you're starting something so new that people don't have familiarity for, it was a brand new role.

Beth: 15:55

There was no counseling person before I was there. There's no counseling ministry. There's no biblical counseling understanding even. It was like, we need to help people understand at the same time that we're trying to put it together and grow it. And so I think that's a great strategy if you have the ability to do that.

Beth: 16:12

Yeah. Have people read just a lesson a week and talk about it.

Shauna: 16:16

That's great.

Michael: 16:16

In that because I think you were talking when you got in, obviously, the culturing process that you're in, that there wasn't no familiarity with any of it. How many I would assume you guys do community groups at that size of church and everything. Have you started at the staff level? You you did at the staff level, but, like, grading it into community group leaders and just having that trying to build that culture.

Beth: 16:36

Yeah. So that's why I always want to offer we call it an equipping track alongside this certification track. As you know, some people, the thought of writing papers and all of the reading and the class time is too overwhelming, and I really want the content to be accessible to as many people as possible. Mhmm. So our equipping track basically runs like auditing.

Beth: 16:58

We don't make them write any papers, but we say you gotta read and come to class and participate. And the thought with that is whenever I share about the class, I say, if you are a follower of Jesus, this class will help you. If you're a community group leader, if you're in student ministry, if you're just someone who has friends who have hard times, if you are formally or informally mentoring people, this will help you. And so most of our people, I would say, they they're not necessarily thinking, oh, I'm gonna serve with the counseling ministry, and I love it. I'm like, please come take the class even if you're not wanting to serve in the counseling ministry because it will change how you do ministry 1 to 1 or in whatever ministry context you're in, period.

Beth: 17:41

And, yeah, we definitely see community group leaders, student ministry leaders, kids leaders, and people who just have an interest, and they keep talking about how much the class impacts them. And that is just really exciting.

Shauna: 17:56

Kids ministry. Yes. For sure. Kids leaders. Like, we definitely need more biblical counselors in that area.

Shauna: 18:01

This is a good podcast to follow Emily's podcast, right, of just really when she's talking about equipping the local church with Beth being an example of what we mentioned in the previous podcast of the one person. Mhmm. And when I read your article, obviously, knowing you before I even read this article, but and just hearing your story, you share it here, just the power of one person and how beautiful it was when I was reading this article, just seeing, like, God drawing you to him. And, obviously, so amidst some of those struggles, it's hard what we have to walk through and and some of the ways that he chooses to do that. But how sweet it is to see him literally drawing you to him through that story in the way that we know that it was good and for his glory.

Shauna: 18:41

And then reading your article, one of the things that stood out to me is is how you put this is literally the quote from your article. It says, there's a degree to which our struggles always confront us with a choice. Will we pursue the Lord amid our sufferings or trials, or will we look for help without reference to God?

Michael: 18:58

And I

Shauna: 18:58

just thought that was so good because it's one of those things that, like, when we're in that moment, the question that we individually could just ask ourself of what am I really going to for healing and for comfort and for hope in this, which was your wrestle and the convictions of as you were teaching and how he drew you to him in that way. You were obedient and, like, literally moved across the country. Can you get any clearer that I'm out I'm over on this side, and now I'm over on this side of where you're at? But just how quickly God rose you to the leadership aspect of it and saying, I didn't even I didn't even dream as where you were going and how you were gonna use me, Lord. And so I just love that.

Shauna: 19:37

I just love how good and faithful God is when we're obedient to

Michael: 19:40

the call. What's funny is that call started before Mhmm. The biblical counseling. The call started when he took the desires that you naturally had. Yeah.

Michael: 19:48

Cultivated that. Yeah. And then change the direction. And that's what I wanted to jump back to for a moment if I could. Yeah.

Michael: 19:55

Pick your thoughts on that a little bit about, really, more so now where do you find that all of that education and training in that context has brought a level of not just being informed, but it informs the way that you carry out your work now.

Beth: 20:11

Yeah.

Michael: 20:12

And in what ways do you does that show itself?

Beth: 20:14

Yeah. I definitely think that it does inform in a lot of ways how I do my work now. It's a little hard for me sometimes to figure out exactly what those lines are because I practice so long that way that I'm like, what if this These

Michael: 20:29

other lines are still being defined. Yeah.

Beth: 20:31

Yeah. And what if this is even related to one of the things that I do now is related to just me as a person and what is related to my training. When you've been doing it for a while, it's hard to tease that apart and even know what's the psychological training and what's me because they get so integrated over time. But I do think that I have seen the Lord use my training and it's again, another kindness of God that I think there was a a point where I started to feel like right or wrong, I was in turmoil, but I started to feel like the whole first part of my career been a waste. Was I really doing good?

Beth: 21:11

Just yeah. All of the questions. I I was wrestling hard and at some point started to feel like, I don't know if it was. Like, was it a waste compared to what I see now, what I'm so passionate about now? It feels like it's just vapor.

Beth: 21:25

And God in his kindness, though, I see how he used my training and my years of even wrestling and all of that to get me to the place that I am now. And so it's one of those just sweet reminders of God's redemption that even when I look back and I'm like, there's so much I wish I had done differently. So much so many years, I wish I had lived differently. And god and his kindness is like, no. That still that still matters, and it's part of what makes your story compelling.

Beth: 21:59

And it's part of what I'm gonna use to help you in the things that you're doing now. So I definitely think that it has helped me. I think there's certainly the amount of time I've spent counseling and teaching people about counseling, even that. Like, here I am now training as a training center for ABC, and I'm utilizing a skill that I have loved, which is teaching. Mhmm.

Beth: 22:24

But I'm utilizing it in a way that's completely in line with my passion now, and I have years of experience behind me that I think can help me as a teacher in the current context that I'm in. So I I see a lot of ways that there's connection. I think the encouragement I'd give to people who are wrestling is just to do the hard work of sifting through that. Because it's, for me, it felt so uncomfortable at times that would have been easy to just pick a side and give up. Mhmm.

Beth: 22:54

Right? But to do the hard work of really figuring out where biblical counseling and the training that I had can complement each other and where how they can work together felt much more tedious and difficult to navigate, but but much more fruitful to do if you can stick it out. So just don't feel like you have to pick a side. Do the hard work to figure out how do these actually complement and help each other, and I think people will find that there's fruit in that.

Shauna: 23:19

That's so wise. It's so good. And I'm glad you recognize that because that's one of the things I had saw too is when Emily was like, yeah. I went and visited one of Beth's class, and she is such a gifted teacher. Like, I just love hearing her teach.

Shauna: 23:30

And I was like, how sweet is that that God was cultivating your gift, that he gave you a gift of teaching. He is cultivating that before you even fully knew how it was gonna come, and now he's using it now. And even just your passion to learn. I mean, you have your doctorate. Right?

Shauna: 23:43

So you're obviously a learner. This is a house of learner doctorates. Right? Think about something.

Michael: 23:48

Of learned doctorates.

Shauna: 23:50

Wait for I was trying to say the quote before you did. But just the fact that you have a mind. Right? God gave you that gift. He gave you those desires to learn.

Shauna: 23:58

And so now you're taking all that experience of what you did before and just applying it to learning God's word, learning equip to counsel, using all that to develop things to teach others, and how that's just gonna overflow to so many people. Knowing that even in the 50 people of the class, like you said, even narrowed it down to 2 or 3, knowing how those are also one person that could go to a particular place and God could use and multiply through them. And so those are the such the things I get excited about, just seeing how God cultivates those gifts and just continues to use leaders like you. So just I'm so excited for you and all those under your leadership and teaching.

Michael: 24:32

So Yeah. I think Going back to Texas.

Shauna: 24:33

Can we move

Michael: 24:34

to Texas? Going going back to just parts of your story that I'm just threading god's will through that Mhmm. Is the sun and bone, right, the greatest ultimate good that you started with the Phyllis, worldview of humanism and man's kind of the ultimate good. Everything terminates on man and his happiness, and that's the ultimate good. But now that's reoriented itself.

Michael: 24:58

Mhmm. It's towards him. Yeah. And and so it's like that it's like that same pursuit, but now it's like you alluded to earlier where part of that turmoil was, like, was it all in vain? Yeah.

Michael: 25:09

And to some degree, it was because it didn't terminate on him, but now he's completely changed that. Yes. So So it terminates on him.

Beth: 25:15

Yes. And Yes. God is just so good. It's very sweet to see how he has been at work in my life and to look back on it because in those times of turmoil, yeah, it was easy to be like, I what am I doing? What do I do?

Beth: 25:31

And how do I make sense of this? And what are you calling me to do? And it was just all so scary and confusing. But then to look back and be like, oh, lord. You were doing something.

Michael: 25:42

Yeah. Yeah. That is awesome. I really appreciate you coming on and being with us. And, again Yeah.

Beth: 25:47

Thanks for having me.

Michael: 25:48

Yeah. For sure. And to what Shauna was saying, it's probably one of the coolest parts of doing podcasts like this where we get to hear people's journeys and stories. Mhmm. And so for those of you who are listening, maybe some of you are licensed professional counselors and you're maybe thinking maybe you are starting to feel some of that tug and wrestle of, man, am I being called to this?

Michael: 26:06

And like I said, it's not really an either or. It's more of a see what you've already been and what you're doing now, and how can you transition over into that, and how can you use all of it for the greatest good.

Shauna: 26:16

Today, we have lots with ABC, lots of of of men and women who are licensed counselors who take the equip to counsel to get training and how to better use scripture in their counseling sessions. And so yeah. So just go to christian counseling.com, look online, and and check out equip to counsel. One One of the things I wanted to mention about Beth really quick, and I'm sure you'll put this in the show notes, is she has a blog. Beth's a writer.

Shauna: 26:38

She has a blog called wrestled faith, so check that out. I just read an article that you wrote on boundaries, which was really good and some other things. How often do you post blogs on there? Oh, it it varies.

Beth: 26:47

It varies. I try it.

Michael: 26:48

When you have time?

Beth: 26:49

Every month.

Michael: 26:50

When you have Yeah.

Beth: 26:50

When I have I have time.

Shauna: 26:51

Yeah. Check it out, though, because you already have some on there, and so there might be some articles that

Michael: 26:55

Yeah. I'll be sure to put that in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Michael: 26:58

Awesome. Thank you, guys. Beth, thank you again for being with us. We love you guys. And, again, it's early in 2024.

Michael: 27:04

So any topics, anything you'd like for us to talk about, please let us know. You can email us at topics at speak the truth dot org. We'll see you guys next time.

Beth: 27:11

Bye. Bye.