Welcome to speak the truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping and encouraging the individual and local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello, hello, hello. I am back with another episode of Speak the Truth. I am by myself today, but as we continue in our Counseling Through Proverbs miniseries, I am joined with us today with a very special guest, a local special guest, but she's not with me in studio, but she is on the other side of town, so to speak.

We've got Lily Park with us, and we're going to be talking about her contribution in the Proverbs Counseling Through series. Lily, how you doing?

Hi, Michael. Thanks for having

me. Yes, it's good to have you. As a matter of fact, I think this is your first appearance on Speak the Truth, is it not?

Yes, it is.

Yes, well I am so very glad that you're with us, and for those of you who may not know Lily Park Lily has been in the academic world for quite some time, and when I said she's here locally, she is outside. Southwestern Theological Seminary. Lily, could you just share a little bit with us who you are and what you've been doing for the last, I don't know, two decades of ministry?

I don't know if it's been that long, but.

Yeah, I came to Fort Worth, Texas. to serve at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and it's been three years now already. And before then I've taught at different colleges and seminaries. And the Lord has just moved me around for either education purposes or job opportunities.

And so it's just nice to put down some roots. To be a part of this texting culture that I'm really enjoying. It is, it is, as it is the hottest time of the year, July. So, and I'm, I'm already getting used to the summer. So, I'm thankful to be here, to be a part of God's work at this school.

And I consider it a privilege, I really do, to get to do what I do. I love. I love studying God's Word, teaching God's Word I love discipling women, and I get to do all of that, and work with some great people, and so I'm just incredibly thankful. Thankful.

Yeah. Well, we're glad to have you with us, Lily.

And I'll I'll put in the show notes, just some of your, some of your, contributions, books, articles, different things that you've, you've contributed. That's been a great help to the church. And so, I'll put that in the show notes. But. Lily, in this Counseling Through Proverbs miniseries that we've been doing, you chose Proverbs 15, 13, and then 30, and then 17, 22, and kind of with the focal point of true joy.

Lily, how would you use your contribution to walk with a counselee in session and out of session? How would you use this, this contribution?

Yes, so, Proverbs is such a practical book, right, it's we, we can just look at almost any verse isolated in itself, and there's something very convicting or encouraging and so, but on the other hand it can be taken out of context about do's and don'ts.

Yeah. And so, I just really want to emphasize for my entry that. Proverbs is wonderful for a lot of practical advice, but on the other hand... It's not a book of moralism, it's a book about loving God, and because of our love for God, we want to do these these proverbial rules, and it's, it's not just to get a blessing, but it's a blessing as a result of loving God and following Him.

So, that was part of my entry that I really wanted to clarify. It's easy to just seek some good nuggets in Proverbs, and it's still beneficial, but I think if we miss the indicatives, we say a lot, right, in the local counseling, the basis of why we do these things we can, We can have the wrong motivation in living a life of, patience and being wise with our words and all these things it's not just about how to live a Christian life but the fruit of living a Christian life.

So my section, that was a long introduction, but my section focused on true joy because it's easy for that joy to be fleeting when it's just about. The imperatives of what we do or don't do, and It can become legalism. So I just wanted to use this passage to encourage counselors and counselees that our joys in the Lord, which I know a lot of us know as Christians, but it's easy to forget and just that our joy in the Lord is what prompts the change behavior and motivation change in how we live our lives.

So I chose 1513 and 1722 because there's a correlation between our joy in the Lord and our expression of that in our countenance, even in our health, and I think sometimes we don't realize how much our luck with the Lord.

can affect our physical health and just the vitality that we have from knowing Christ more personally, more intimately. And so 1513, for example, says, A glad heart makes a cheerful faith, but by sorrow of heart, the spirit is crushed. And just like 1513 is just showing how the gladness or sorrow of the heart.

Is revealed in our countenance or outer man. but I think it's important to relate that to a verse like Proverbs 17, 22. It says, A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones. The crushed spirit is both in 15, 13 and 17, 22, we see that parallel, but I love this about God's Word is, it tells us the problem and then gives us wisdom for the problem.

And it says it's a joyful heart, but. A joyful heart is not just emotion, it's good medicine, and the Bible speaks to the good medicine being found in God's Word. And so there we just see how if we're not abiding and meditating, delighting in God's Word and some days will be harder than others, some days we're just really just forcing ourselves, right?

But we are still benefiting from those times We slow down to, even if it's just 10 minutes, to just meditate on his word and that brings a form of healing to our soul. So that was a big part of my section is just that the joy and sorrows can reveal how we're doing spiritually and whether. Our focus and our joy is in the Lord or it's in something else that's distracting us.

You actually have your point one is our joy and sorrows reveal the condition of our heart.

and I want to be careful. I am not saying that

I want to be careful in that I'm not saying that if you're going through a grieving process, for example that you're just going to be jumping up and down because your joy is in the Lord. I'm not saying that. And so we know the difference between joy and happiness, but I think joy is just more of the deep seated pleasure or peace we have in the Lord.

And it doesn't have to express itself in such a visible manner. So a person whose joy is in the Lord can be evident in more quiet ways, but often more visible ways. And that's still joy in the Lord. So I just wanted to make that clarification because sometimes as Christians we think, oh, we don't have a glad heart.

If we're not just saying, praise God, praise God, hallelujah all the time, something like that. And so that goes to my second point, that our joy must be in the Lord, our source of joy. And so what I was doing is trying to connect Proverbs 15, 30, the light of the eyes rejoices the heart and good news refreshes the bones, and here's the good news.

It's pointing to God's word, and that's what refreshes the bone, and I like that imagery. I'm a visual person, and I like that imagery of thinking how. The bones are refreshed, like coming to life, strengthened and it's through God's Word. And I see that even in my own life sometimes, where I'm just distraught and weary, but reading God's Word and sticking to it, even though I might not see something immediately at some point, I read something in God's Word and it's aha, that, that just brings and strength for what I'm going through, and Proverbs 1530 is talking about that.

It's God's word. It's the good news that refreshes the bones. And then I connected that with Proverbs 1 7, which is really the basis of the whole book of Proverbs, that I was talking about at the beginning, and it's the fear of the Lord the beginning of knowledge, and full despise of the instruction.

So, the book of Proverbs is It's really about the fear of the Lord, and those who despise it are called fools, but those who desire it and pursue it are the wise people, people of knowledge, and they're the ones who can experience this glad heart, this joyful heart the bones that are refreshed, so to speak.

So, my second point just focused on the source of the joy, being in God, and we can't know God experience God, apart from meditating on his word. So, that's in a nutshell what I was trying to get at for that part.

Yeah, that's good, because much like you captured in your, first part here in session with those two points, is one of the things you said, the difference between happiness and joy.

And I think one of the active things that the Lord uses, because like you said in your first point, sorrow and joy and how it reveals the condition of our heart. And I think that's the, the blessing in disguise in a sense is that our human nature, the flesh is always trying to maximize pleasure and minimize pain.

And, and in that joy is really deferring to God's promises. So it's like in the moment, I'm not feeling good. I don't like to your point, I could have a bad day and I'm not really, I don't feel drawn to the Lord. I don't feel connected to him. I'm not really having joy. Like I'm not feeling it quote unquote, like emotionally, I don't seem to be connected to him, but, but going to his word and reading his promises and descriptively in this, in this text, pointing us back to the Lord in his word and to your point though, about the imagery, I appreciate.

Or, using that language of bones because it's like the, it's it's deep in our flesh, but we can feel it, but we can feel it. Right? We know, we know when we're, when, there's like the, there's like emotional pain, but then there's like physical pain and just like the ache, right? And so it just captures that reality.

And I think that is going back to the hidden blessing is when we're not feeling that joy, deferring back to his promises, because that is like you said happiness. I mean, it's based on what's happening, and, and these temporal fleeting transient moments, on any given day we could feel great.

And then five minutes later feel terrible. And so. The point of this psalm is to try to help, obviously, encourage the reality of where we find our true, true joy in this broken world. So yeah, so it's good. So in, using this with your counselee, how would you, assuming you've got that sort of counselee who's just really struggling to find joy in anything, let alone the Lord.

Yeah. But his gifts, his promises, things like that. But how have you... How have you seen this sort of counselee and then how would you apply kind of your first two points but then apply that in the after session assignments that you would give to this counselee?

Yeah I, I encounter a lot of counselees who are sharing different circumstantial struggles, right?

Different kinds of histories and problems in their circumstances, but I also notice a pattern where a lot of them are just not reading the words and they become uncomfortable. Yeah. numb or not motivated, discouraged and You know some of them just have turned to other things for distraction

I can strongly encourage them to read the Word and, check up on them and ask them for accountability and things like that. But see, I can't force them or strongly encourage them to delight in God's Word. And see, that's different. And so, I just start with, That joy in the Lord, I think, sometimes, it can't happen if our hope is not in the Lord.

And they're, they're together. Yeah. And so. I just try to, I like to use the phrase baby step because I just think it's a nice way to concretely show people it's not a big step of change or a big leap and so I want to encourage them to like persevere. And to just to not over, overwhelm themselves with high expectations.

So, just let's talk about, maybe it's a short book in the Bible, maybe Philippians. Join the Lord is a big theme in there. Let's go through that. Verses at a time, journaling and meditating on it. And so what I'm doing is I'm just trying to help people to get back into the habit of opening God's word.

And I know that might sound really basic, but I'm amazed how God uses. I'm going to be talking about the importance of having those times, those times of homework powerfully as part of their progress. So I see our role as counselors in patiently and exhorting our counselees and doing that in our sessions, like giving them that glimpse.

of God's love for them and the hope, the joy in Him. And maybe you can use a verse like Proverbs 15, 30, how it's God's word that refreshes the bones and help them to understand that, oh, yeah, I guess. I, I agree with that, but I haven't been reading the Word, so how can we start reading the Word, and not just quantity, but quality?

So I always say, it's not just how much you read, but what are you really learning about God? And, and the gospel through this passage. So, with someone who is just really discouraged and struggling, I try to just help them to see that, well, do they even agree that our hope is in the Lord? And I don't want to make that assumption.

So just asking them. And let's say they say yes, and then help them to see, according to these passages even, that well, our joy can only be found in the Lord, and that's connected to spending time. meditating on God's word and just seeing if this person is even wanting to do that. And if they are, that's great.

We have a golden opportunity to patiently walk with them. Different passages and, and it, it doesn't have to be a long passage. We're just reminding them something they've forgotten because they've been so consumed by a worry in their life or, or burden from bad news from the doctor, perhaps.

And so, reminding people what they know and then finding passages that are relevant to what they're going through. So I think that builds their confidence in the Lord and wanting to read more and more of the Word. But I always try to start small because I don't want to, I don't want to make it seem as if it's a, like a rule based counseling.

If you do this, then this will happen, like this passage is talking about. It's placing our trust in the Lord, our fear is in the Lord, caring more about what He thinks, and searching His Word to know more of who God is. So building that relationship so that they have, they can taste the joy that comes from Him.

So I would say that's how I would, I could. Use this passage, and I'm thinking of several recent examples, but that's basically how we approached

it. No, that's good. And just to wrap up here, I, I know to your point, because Joy is like a fruit, right? I mean, it's deep within, but there's a spirit

Yeah. But it, but it is, it's rooted in hope because if you lose hope, what? Well, you don't have any joy. What do you, what's your, where, what's your joy in if you don't have any hope? Right. And that hope and that hope comes from God's promises. And that's the whole goal and point of getting them into the word, because we know that.

And, and you use Galatians 5 here, to read 24, and write about the difference between the works of the flesh and the fruit of the spirit. And so your encouragement and exhortation to them is I know what it's like to lose sight and to, to lose hope and joy in the Lord, because we get focused on the things of this world and it takes our, it takes our gaze and focus off of the Lord.

So let's get back in the word. And here's a couple of exercises to help you sort of. Re experience that, if you will, or reorient that so that you can really begin to experience the Lord in a particular way that sort of re engages that hope and that joy.

So this is a, this is definitely a good contribution. Lily, thank you so much for providing this for us and providing many scriptural references in it. So thank you for this and thank you for your time. And I look forward to having you on the podcast again, hopefully real soon.

Thank you for having me. And I enjoyed this

conversation. Yes. Thank you guys for listening. We'll see you guys next time.