EP. 123 CTP Series: When Men Lack Sense

Welcome to Speak the Truth, A podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello? Hello. I'm not gonna say it, but I am the only one in the studio today. Shauna is out and about handling some things some family stuff.

Jeremy is not with us, so I am Han Solo this morning, however. I do have a very famous guest on Speak The Truth. No, I say that jokingly. He has been with us before in his podcast that he was with me and was great. And it's actually along those same lines. We've been working through the counseling through Proverbs.

And again, the resource will be in the show notes but Jesse Perl is with us and he is in Southern Hills Church in Carrollton, Georgia. Jesse, how you doing? I'm doing

Jesse: great, Mike, man. Thanks for having me on. It's really good with you.

Mike: Yes, likewise. Likewise your last contribution. It was counseling through the Old Testament and it was in Jeremiah two and talking about idolatry, which is one of our most listened to podcasts.

That

Jesse: is that's humbling and I hope, for those who've listened, it's been really helpful both personally and then in their, and their counseling context. So that's great to

Mike: hear. Yes, for sure. And. What's cool about that episode is obviously idolatry seems to be one of those topics that, a lot of people don't, it's like they're not sitting around and Hey, let's talk about what, where we struggle with, our idolatry, but it was listened to a lot and which tells me there's a lot of counselors out there that are using it and it was a helpful resource and contribution to that particular book in ABC Res. And likewise, your contribution in counseling through Proverbs, you had. Proverbs seven. You want to tell us a little bit about why you chose Proverbs seven?

Yeah,

Jesse: Absolutely. So the proverb, one of the reasons I chose it is I find myself using it a lot as I do counseling. And the, probably the first time I started using this proverb was, it was really helpful personally, I think the first time I went through. Even as a student, I would say, seven, seven years ago or so, that it's in less than 35, I believe, in the newest edition of Equipped to Counsel on the the nature of sexual temptation and sin.

And so it became really helpful for me those years ago, and then I just started using it a ton. And so the proverb really, I think helps give, and I mentioned this in my My thing for you guys that it gives a really helpful picture of James 1 14 15, which is the nature of temptation. And so the proverb seven tells a story of a man who commits adultery when and so I've titled it when men Lack Sense.

That comes from the proverb itself. And so it can be applied to a number, but [00:03:00] I have found it especially helpful when I'm counseling young who are dealing. Pornography or other sexual temptation. And it helps us see what happens. That lead leading up to the sin itself. And then that gives us really good insight into how to avoid it.

So kinda things to put into your heart and mind to stay off of the path altogether. And I have found that the proverb has been really good. The imagery it gives everybody can understand and grasp. You can kind see the picture. As you're reading the proverb, and so it's just been really useful across the board for me for a lot of years now.

Mike: Yeah, and it's it's a, it's obviously a really good text to walk that path as and in your context, counseling a lot of men and who struggle with pornography and other sexually related struggles and lust and different things like that. And how would you, or how do you, I, you obviously wrote this to format it for a resource, but how do you use this?

How would you use this in a counseling session?

Jesse: Yeah, so I obviously once I find out that a council lead just through, data gathering, sometimes it may be in there intake form or things but once it basically once they've confessed that they're struggling with some kind of sexual sin, I think helping them understand just the nature of temptation that's from James, and then seeing particularly how sexual sin speaks to us from the proverb is super helpful.

So I usually. Start with James chapter one, 14 and 15, which I can read in just a moment. Yeah. And then I jump straight into proverb seven. We just basically spend the session working through those things, kinda back and forth between the text and their life, just going back and forth between the two.

So let me read James one 14. And, but each person is tempted when he lured and enticed by his desire. And desire when it's conceived, gives birth to sin. And sin when it's fully grown, brings [00:05:00] forth death. And so there in the verse, I didn't read verse 13 we see that God is not the one who tempts us and we, if we want to grow to avoid sinful temptations.

I think it's really helpful to see how it works and kinda where it comes from, the origin of the temptation. So it doesn't come from God. Instead it comes from our own desires. And James uses two metaphors here. He uses a fishing metaphor in verse 14 that lured and entice get the idea of drawing out fish.

And it's our desires that draw us out that way. That's where it comes from or it comes from within the next verse. Picture of birthing if you'll, so when desire grows up it gives birth, it conceives and gives birth to sin, and then when sin grows up it brings forth death.

And so that's where, that's how temptation comes. It comes from our own desires, and that's where it leads us to sin leads. To death. And so the imagery there is really helpful to just help people see, hey, if you follow that desire, that sinful desire to its end, it's going to lead you somewhere very knowable according to God's word, despite what it may be offering.

I think I find it helpful too to interact, just camp out on that fishing analogy around here. We have a lot of people who fish recreationally here in Carrollton, Georgia, it's helpful just people get that. They can understand that, hey, when you're trying to catch a bass, you make that whatever bait you're using, you want it to look attractive to the fish, right?

You want it to be appealing. You want it almost to seem like a gift to that fish. And that's if you're gonna catch it. That's how the fish sees it, right up until it actually takes it. And the moment. It sees the bigger picture, it sees the full story that was hidden. And our desires, our central desires are like that.

It promises something good and appealing. Good to look at, good for food. Hopefully this is all bringing ideas of Genesis three into our mind, right? And then when we actually go after it, it leads us to death. The same bait. Gets, dragged out and is killed. And that's how sin works.

That's how Satan works as the one who is here to kill and steal and destroy. And so I love how James just gives us clarity on that and helping a counselee see, hey, it's not that, it's not so much that pornography exists, is the reason that you struggle with it. It, it's, there's something going on in your desires that is leading you to it.

So I think it's Paul Trip and one of his, one of his trainings, he says, when he's speaking of temptation, he says that evil outside of us. So think about something like pornography. The evil outside of us hooks on to the evil inside of us. Yeah. And so there's some kinda evil desire. It's there that must be dealt with.

If we are going to change and follow the Lord turn away from our own sin. So help helping the counseling see that I think is vital. And then showing them that from proverb seven, I think it's just doubly helpful. So here's a picture of how it works. So let me read Proverbs seven now.

And then we can interact with that for a moment. So I'll just read the whole proverb. Yep. Proverb seven. Here we go. My son, keep my words and treasure up my commandments with you. Keep my commandments and live. Keep my teaching as the apple of your eye. Bind them on your fingers. Write them on the tablet of your heart.

Say to wisdom, you are my sister. And call Insight your intimate friend to keep you from the Forbidden woman. From the adulterous with her smooth words at the window of my house, I have looked out through my lattice and I have seen among the temple I have perceived among the youths. A young man lacking sense, passing along the street, near her corner, taking the road to her house in the twilight in the evening at the time of night, and darkness and behold, the woman meets him, dressed as a prostitute, wily of heart.

She is loud and wayward. Her feet do not stay at home. Now in the street, now in the market, and at every corner, she lies and wait. She seizes him and kisses him. And with bold faith, she says to him, I had to offer sacrifices. And today I have paid my vows. So now I've come out to meet you, to seek you eagerly, and I have found you.

I have spread my couch with coverings colored linens from Egyptian linen. I perfumed my bed with Merr, aloes and Cinnamon. Come let us drink our fill of love till morning. Let us to delight ourselves with love for my husband is not at home. He has gone on a long journey. He took a bag of money with him at Full Moon.

He will come home with much seductive speech. She persuades him with her smooth talk, sheels him all at once. He follows her as an ox, goes to the slaughter. As a stag is caught fast to an arrow pierces its liver. As a bird rushes into a snare, he does not know that it will cost him his life. And now as sons, listen to me and be attentive to the words of my mouth.

Let not your heart turn inside to her ways. Do not stray into her path. For many a victim has she laid low and all her slain are a mighty. Her house is the way to she going down to the chambers. Of death. So that is death, that is Proverbs seven. And I think it, again, just even as I was reading, hopefully evident to all of our listeners that it, it gives a a story that at times you just wanna scream out to the young man, stop, don't do it.

Don't follow her. We know where this is leading. And so for Counselees working through this, and again, going back and forth between their life and how their works. Again, seeing it in a text here, can we bring it to life for them in ways that is not just convicting, but also memorable for in the future moments of their temptation.

And I usually point out just a few things about the proverb to them. So there's an appeal here, right? This early part of the proverb, there's an appeal as a father speaking to his children, right? So you've got this father speaking to his son here. Hey, keep away from adultery. Don't go down that, that path.

And then another little helpful thing, this is from this is from the ESV study Bible on the character types in the proverbs. How do you understand the full and the simple we're dealing with here? And so this is a quote from that, that study bible, which is super helpful. It says the simple, as the person who is not firmly committed either to wisdom or to folly, he has easily misled.

His trouble is that he does not apply himself to the discipline needed to gain and grow in wisdom. And so you've got a person here who's not really seeking God. He's someone, and this will come up later and Psalm 1 0 1, this is a young man who lacks integrity. He doesn't really know who he is.

He's going go after what he wants, maybe based on who he's around. And so there's no integrity here to this man or to the woman, which we'll also see, but again the father kinda pleading with his son here to stay away. And what we see with this young man is that he intentionally puts himself in a position to see this woman.

An earlier proverb, Proverbs five eight alludes to this and says, Hey, don't go near the door of her house. And we see this young man. Go near the door of her house, and so he chooses to do what he wants. He makes the sin possible here. And rather than from Romans 13, verse 14, rather than making no provision for the flesh to desires he chooses intentionally a foolish path, one that he knows is at least with the idea of this.

And then the timing of the story also indicates the same thing, right? So the scene progresses this is verse nine in the twilight in the evening, at the time of night and darkness. So you can even see the story progressing. It's just getting darker, which is also what sin without repentance does.

We just get, we just keep going. We just, it just gets darker. And also I think the text indicates since he's doing this at night, he's minimizing any chance of godly intervening counsel. Cause people are asleep, people are not around. So he's got the cover of darkness as a way to hide as he seeks out his own desire.

Proverbs 18, one, that whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire, he breaks out against all sound judgment. We see that young man who's lacking sense. We see him going that way he's doing this in a way that's intentionally where he's isolated. No one's there to speak to him. And so in counseling, one of the things I'm gonna really try to do with a counseling, help them see these elements in their life as it relates to, against sexual temptation.

And questions I may ask as we're reading through this. Hey, what counselee will say, Joe, just as a random name here hey, Joe, do you see any connection to your own life with how this young man, he's doing this at a particular time of day when no one's gonna be around, when no one's going to know, or so he thinks, right?

No one's gonna see is there a pattern to your temptation that's like that? Is there a certain time. I know even for some at certain times of the year certain days of the year even are particularly difficult for them as it relates to lust or other kinds of temptation there.

And so to help them see that, hey this probably occurs at certain times. But then also, let's see how does the sexual temptation speak to you? This is where I think I mentioned John Henderson's lesson in equipment counsel. He just does a really good job in that lesson of teaching how sexual sin speaks to us.

One of the ways he interacts with that the text here he says sexual sin always appeals to us through pride. We see that in this text, and may I, if anyone does any soul searching as it relates to sexual temptation, you'll see how evidently true this is, that it speaks to our pride.

And just think about the word that she says to him. I'm in verse 15. I have come out to meet you. I have found you, and there's this desire. That she has for him. John Henderson, in the book, he says something like she's intoxicated with him. And that idea is intoxicating to him, right?

This woman's not gonna keep anything from him. She has been eagerly seeking him. And sexual temptation speaks to us that way, right? One of the allure of many other than our own personal pleasure. One of the ways that pornography speaks to people is that, hey, it, it's not gonna reject you.

It can't cause it, it can't in that way, but it's there for your pleasure. It's there for your partaking in, and that's one of the ways that it speaks to the person who's being tempted. And so helping them to see that, hey, it sexual temptation is gonna talk to you. The way that this woman talks, she's offering something that seems great.

Maybe even bounce back to James here, the fishing analogy. Say the bait looks good to the fish and we know where it's leading. It's leading the same place that this woman, this adulterous again symbolism for all sin here and temptation it. It's how she speaks to him. Her couch is covered with Egyptian linen.

We've got good smells. Bed is perfumed with merr. Come let us take our field of glove till morning. You've got this. Hey, this is gonna last a while. You've just got, you've got all that language there that's alerting us to you. Got Temptation speaks to us in ways that we like. That's why we often fall into it.

We like another. She gives an apparently spiritual reason for her for the young man to come into her house. So she mentions her spiritual side, right? I had to offer sacrifices today. I've paid my vows. So maybe he's got, maybe the young man has a religious reason to come in according to the law.

They have to finish that meet before morning. So maybe there's some, Justification in his mind of even entering the house if he's dealing here. Maybe there's some reason there's something good here for me. Get outta this, young men, I talk to some of the justifications I've heard for pornography use or other things as well.

It helps me sleep if I can partake in this then at night or or else I'm restless. Or hey, if I'm doing this, at least I'm not actually committing adultery or actually committing some other kind of sexual sin. And so there's this reason that goes into it that I think helping men in counseling see, hey, what are some ways you try to justify this in your life?

What does that look like for you? Like again, see the appeal is not just the desires, it's also through the mind, through deception, which is what this woman is doing. And what I wanna help young men with in all of this it's to really keep them off of the path itself. So that look, nine times outta 10, maybe 10 times outta 10 if you get to her door.

If you've gotten yourself to that point, you're almost certainly gonna sin. If you can keep yourself from the door of her house, which is what the proverbs tell us to do, you're going to be much more successful. You're gonna have much more integrity and right wisdom. And I think this is what the proverb is teaching us.

Wisdom means keeping off the street altogether. It's not, you're not testing. Your spiritual maturity by seeing how close you can get, right? That's not spiritual maturity. And so for young men, I wanna help them see what, what connections from this passage can we see in your life and those moments that you're tempted.

So something I have found a ton as it relates to pornography, as there's usually some, what I call springboards. There's other things that happen throughout their day. Or even around the time that they may view pornography that plays into leading them there. And so there are certain, maybe there are certain apps, certain television shows, maybe certain music.

There may be lots of different things to where they'll start, let's say on some social media and they see a video or they see a picture that they find attractive, enticing. And then you get that idea of pornography comes into the mind. And so they springboard where they just allow those temptations to, to linger maybe on a Facebook or some other, again, some other social media there.

And then they jump over into a, into pornographic website.

There's always, not always, but there's typically that, that springboard there. So I wanna say, look, part of what you may need to do is get rid of those springboards. So I don't just wanna put blockers on your phone to, or your tablet or whatever, to pornographic website, but those other things that really draw you along there, the street near her corner, so to speak, as you find yourself scrolling through your for you page.

You find yourself scrolling through these videos time after time, almost kinda looking for something specific. Let's get rid of those two to cut off the temptation at the earliest point. So what other questions I have here in the entry. As this young man puts himself on a road that leads to her corner, where do you put yourself in hopes for viewing pornography?

What specific places is this temptation strong? Maybe it's your bedroom, maybe it's your bathroom. But let's think about the location. Let's think about how it builds up and fewer desires. And then the woman pornography offers this appealing scene, the scene that ends poorly for those who pursue it.

And then even asking them, Hey, if you're bringing this up in counseling, I know you want some help with it. And I know you have felt the negative consequences that comes from things like this, and you feel it immediately. You feel it immediately. And there's usually guilt and shame involved and a promise to never do it again.

And but I think again, until they can recognize how it works how it speaks to them, and then where temptation comes from, they're just gonna repeating that. In biblical counseling language, if they're only trying to fight at the level of volition and this promise to not do it again, and they don't get down into the the affections and the thinking, the cognition their desires then they're only fighting on, about a third of what they need to be fighting on.

And so helping them to see that I think is. Really helpful in counseling. And then they can bring these word pictures in scripture home with them. I'll have Counselees usually memorize those little phrases like the street near her corner so that they can catch themselves in a moment of temptation to know, Hey, that's where you're at.

Don't put yourself on that street. Get off the street. As soon as you recognize that you're there, right by the Holy Spirit. Convicting, you get off the street, you know where this leads. Another thing I'll often say to counselee is, Hey, with fishing, this is back to the James passage. With fishing, you can catch a, you can catch a bass, throw it back in, catch it again.

You can keep doing that because fish don't really learn the best way. Only way you're not gonna catch one is if you're not doing a good job as the fisherman or if they're not hungry. But you can keep catching the same fish. But. Part of being made in God's image is that we can recognize, especially if we're talking about Christians and the Holy Spirit, we can recognize in our sanctification, sinful temptation, and we can in Christ say no to it.

And we can go a different direction, pursue God and live and walk in wisdom and ways that are pleasing to him. And so helping them to see that. I have found super helpful. And so again, another thing these men need, and I reference this here, but I wanna see if you have any any thoughts or questions here, Mike.

But proverb is 1 0 1, which I can read in a few minutes is also really helpful as it relates to, I wanna help build into these men these Christian men, integrity of heart, so that they're not like this young man here.

Mike: No man. That's really good. And just what I appreciate about what you did with this particular assignment and call it assignment or a growth plan or just a way to, to sit in session with the counselees is how specific you were .

And I cuz you, you're right, as you were talking about having. Our counselees in the room and being with them is helping them see, cuz most of them, they don't understand or they don't truly know why they do what they do. They don't know why they continue to go back to it. And I think what you've done in this this particular assignment is really help in at least as the counselor helping the counselor provide a pathway to help them first identify some patterns through the text.

And to me, this is. What I appreciate about what you've done here, Jesse, is that to me, this is biblical counseling, 1 0 1, where you're able to get into a text together, think through it, meditate on it, start exposing and shedding light to the reality of darkness and just how. How prevalent it is in our hearts.

But then as you said a moment ago, just the reality of being a Christian and you can appeal to things like it's not a hopeless cause. There's things that we can appeal to, namely the Holy Spirit within us and the fact that we have a new nature and we can actually pray and we actually can begin to desire what's actually good and hate what's evil.

Which is obviously, as we know as Christians, like that's the whole pathway as a believer. And that's part of the sanctification process. And so I think some of those universal truths in our Christian life and heart, you've applied to a very specific need. And understanding and understanding.

A very, obviously, we know a very pervasive sin in, in men's lives and hearts is. When men lack true sense. And I appreciate how you captured earlier too, the idea of the simple, thematically speaking with wisdom and folly, and then how. The authors will typically, point out that reality of being simple, like they're just not thinking in one direction or the other.

They're just neutral. But we know there's no such thing as neutrality that just being dense and not really thinking and being sober-minded with the reality of what's before them. And so how you've pointed that out in the text I think would be super helpful in this exercise with Counselees.

But yeah, in reading Psalm 1 0 1 and just helping, cuz I think that's always the part in counseling is in terms of the process, exposing what we see, exposing the patterns, and then what you've done here is really effectively put off, put on. Yeah, absolutely.

And so I think that was really good. But yeah, so those are my initial thoughts. And I appreciate just some of the other pieces, like the idea of springboards and in session and outta session. And so what you've done throughout is, here's what we can discuss in session, but here's some after session things that I'm gonna give you that we learned from in session, that you can then go out and immediately apply and begin to actually be intentional with this reality.

And, and so you've. You've connected a lot of different scripture verses that help them really put together the reality of certain themes that we see in scripture as it relates to our hearts. And so I think you did a good job there, man, that, that was really good. Any any closing thoughts before we wrap up this episode?

Jesse: Yeah. I would say the other, so if you're looking at the resource that ABC provided, The other helpful passages of study, Psalm 1 0 1, first Thessalonians four and First John one are really helpful both to use, even if you can fit it into one counseling session or if it ends up going into others or homework assignments, things like that.

Opt one really helpful, especially in Psalm 1 0 1. There's a phrase in verse two. I will walk with integrity of heart within my house and I have memorized that. David who wrote that is a man who we know at one point in his life was not a man of integrity in his house. And so you've got David there, vowing right to, to be a man of integrity.

And we want to model him in that way. We wanna be men who. Who are men of integrity when we're in our homes and everywhere else too, that this particular temptation usually happens in our homes. And so that, I love Palm 1 0 1. It has been a gift to me and I've helped, but I think that'd be my last closing thought with.

Those other helpful passages really help build around what we've said and enhance those who are trying to turn away from that sin and turn toward

Mike: Christ. Yeah, that's good man. Jesse, thank you so much for being with us on Speak The Truth, and I look forward to catching up with you again.

Thank you guys for listening. If you have any questions, thoughts, ideas for episodes, please email us at topics speak the truth.org. We'll see you guys next time.